Jesus' Human Body (page 4)

Narkissos

I believe he was raised a spirit then raised his own flesh

Wow, and I thought JosephMalik was alone...

the bible speaks of jesus taking his ransom to his father

Huh, where?

in the story of Elijah where he drops dead and a chariot comes down and takes him away

Does he?

Jesus was clear as well that nobody ascended to heaven before himself .

Well, in John, yes. But in the Synoptic sayings it is not the case (I would argue that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and Elijah at the very least are supposed as being in heaven.)

Hellrider

1 Corinthians 15:44 (New American Standard Bible) 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

This passage doesn`t necessarily exclusively refer to the ressurection of the body (the ressurection on the day that the dead will be raised from their graves). The passage can also be interpreted to refer to the soul "raised" after the body dies.

Jesus was clear as well that nobody ascended to heaven before himself .
Well, in John, yes. But in the Synoptic sayings it is not the case (I would argue that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob,;Moses and Elijah at the very least are supposed as being in heaven.)

I definitely agree! I argued about this with a JW not long ago. He did the whole "well, but Jesus was the first one raised from the dead"-routine, etc, but the Bible makes a distinction between a raising of the body to perfect, immortal form (the ressurection of Christ), the raising of the body to mortal, imperfect form (as Lazarus), and the raising of the soul of the righteous, after death. The point I made when discussing with this JW, was that Jesus himself would not use an incorrect, unBiblical, heretic doctrine, in a parable, to prove a point. The parable about Lazarus (in heaven, in the bosom of Abraham) and the dead, rich guy in hell, is a parable that comes directly from Jesus mouth (according to the Bible). The JW responded by saying "it`s just a parable, Christ would use a belief the jews were acustomed with, to explain them something else". But I do NOT agree with that. Whenever Jesus met with people who believed in heretic doctrines, he corrected them. He attacked the Saducees for not believing in the ressurection of the dead. There are other accounts to, which show this belief clearly, and that Jesus believed in this.

Narkissos

The point I made when discussing with this JW, was that Jesus himself would not use an incorrect, unBiblical, heretic doctrine, in a parable, to prove a point. The parable about Lazarus (in heaven, in the bosom of Abraham) and the dead, rich guy in hell, is a parable that comes directly from Jesus mouth (according to the Bible). The JW responded by saying "it`s just a parable, Christ would use a belief the jews were acustomed with, to explain them something else".

Ask him how would have Jesus rated in the TMS with such an illustration...

mdb

Jesus was resurrected in the flesh as the Scriptures say. Maybe these references have already been posted, but I don't have time to read every posting here. I didn't see them in the posts I did read and even if they are repeated, they're just as good the second time.

Ps 16:8-11; Matt 28:9; Luke 24:30,37-43; Jn 2:19-21; 20:17,27; 21:12,13; Acts 1:4; 2:25-32; 13:29-37; 1 Tim 2:5; 1 Pet 3:18

heathen

I agreed with the WTBTS assessment of the parable . He was talking about the poor jews that were being mistreated and were not getting the spiritual knowledge from the religious leaders . The rich man being in gehenna was a metaphor for the the judgement they were getting from jesus , the drop of water on the toungue is more likely the sign they kept asking for but did not get . Abraham of course being jesus himself .

mdb

Heathen,

The Watchtower says this parable about Abraham's Bosom is entirely symbolic & doesn’t indicate conscious existence after death and their interpretation is to attempt to prove their doctrine of soul-sleep. They say the parable resembles the following:

Rich man: Jewish religious leaders (Pharisees).
Lazarus: Jewish followers of Jesus – people despised by Pharisees & repented to follow Jesus.
Abraham: Jehovah-God.
The death of each of these people: change of conditions for each group while here on earth. Those once despised now into a position of divine favor; those once favored now rejected by Jehovah-God & became “tormented” by proclamations delivered by those they had despised (the apostles).

If people become non-existent at death, what is the point of Luke 16:22-28? Was Jesus teaching something based entirely on a falsehood? When Jesus taught using parables or stories, He always used real-life situations. Luke 16 portrays a real-life situation and life after death.

The Scriptures go against the WTS teaching of soul-sleep. Look at 2 Cor 5:6-8. The phrases (in the Greek text) “at home in the body” and “absent from the Lord”, are both present tense. The moment a Christian dies, he is immediately in the presence of Christ. The Greek word pros (with) in the phrase “be at home with the Lord” suggests a very close (face-to-face) fellowship or intimate relationship. Man does possesses an immaterial nature that consciously survives physical death, despite what the Watchtower teaches.

Hellrider

I agree totally, mdb. I have to say, the WTS`s "symbolic interpretations" are usually (or always) of as much value as the stuff I occasionally have to dig out of my belly button... And how about John 8:56? Many people get so obsessed about John 8,58 "Before Abraham came into existence, I am", but in my opinion, 8,56 is just as interesting. "Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see my day, and he saw it and was glad". So the importance is not that Jesus (as the word) lived allready, when Abraham lived, and that Jesus saw Abraham. The importance is that Abraham not only saw Jesus`s day, but he saw it and was glad! This last passage rules out, in my opinion, any symbolic interpretation. If the passage had only said "Abraham was overjoyed to see my day", I could have accepted a symbolic interpretation, but not when it`s as specific as it is. Not only did he actually see it, but he was glad! - He showed an actual, emotional response. There is no way this passage is meant to be symbolic.

heathen

Rich man: Jewish religious leaders (Pharisees).

Lazarus: Jewish followers of Jesus – people despised by Pharisees & repented to follow Jesus.

Abraham: Jehovah-God.

That's pretty much what I said , but the main point was that they refused to believe that christ was the messiah and so that's why the poor were favored because they were eager to listen and learn . I don't belive it had anything to do with actual death and a firey torment . The apostle Paul writings and revelation are clear that the dead would not be resurrected until a specific time in the future . Jesus himself even discussed judgement day and the 2 resurrections .

Jesus' Human Body

Share this