Jesus' Human Body

by UnDisfellowshipped 37 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • paulE
    paulE

    The eye witnesses of Jesus resurrected body were seeing something that had never been seen before. They made no attempt to explain it in detail, they just told what they saw. The body of Jesus was the same, yet strangely different. They could see Jesus, hear him, they touched his body; it had the evidence of the nails and the wound in his side; they saw Jesus eat fish, even cook breakfast for them. They recognized that it was Jesus, yet they wanted to ask at times "who are you". In his resurrected body Jesus could appear in a locked room, or quickly vanish, or ascend upwards.

    Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15, described the resurrected body in the same way. It would be the same, but different. There would be continuity, so that it would be the same person; yet there would be discontinuity in that the resurrected body would have added features. The resurrected body would be incorruptable and immortal. Paul used the illustration of a seed. When planted in the ground, it eventually grows. The stalk and leaves that grow do not look exactly like the seed, but has new features that the bare seed did not have. Yet, we recognize that it has continuity or sameness with the seed.

    The eye witnesses, Paul, early church fathers, and apologist all struggled to find words that would describe the relationship between our present bodies and the resurrected body. The one thing that they all made clear is that it was definitely a physical body, but in a new, different, strangely wonderful sense.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    That is exactly my view too, PaulE. Very well said.

  • Shazard
    Shazard

    PaulE the new ressurected body was controlled by Spirit. It is how thing should be from the begining. That material "dust" body is obidient to Spirit. But by sin all went upwards... body started control Spirit... and it is how things are today! But when we will be restored to the very core... we will be like Jesus Christ who is the first! Spirit will be source of whole power and glory. And see... see cocon and butterfly...

  • acadian
    acadian

    Hello All,

    Maybe Jesus taught something differant than what the bible teaches, why do we believe the bible isn't corrupted when it was the Roman church that canonised it.

    Matthew 2:23
    and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: "He will be called a Nazarene."

    Mark 14:67
    When she saw Peter warming himself, she looked closely at him. "You also were with that Nazarene, Jesus," she said.

    Mark 16:6
    "Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him.

    Acts 24:5
    "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect

    An interesting historical fact is that the town of Nazareth didn't exist until 200 to 300 hundred years later, there was a community of Nazarenian essenes though.

    A few Nazarene and Gnostic beliefs...

    NAZOREANISM vs JUDAISM

    NAZOREANISMJUDAISM
    Worships a Heavenly Mother & Father called LIFE!Worships an intolerant God called YAHWEH!
    Uses Nazorean Scrolls of the Great Life Uses Ezra's Torah (Mosaic Law & Old Testament)
    Worships with fresh fruit offerings only.Worships with animal sacrifice
    Promotes peace and tolerancePromotes war and capital punishment
    Wears white clothingWears colored clothing
    Connected to ancient Egyptian Mystery SchoolsConnected to currupt Persian Governments
    Centered in Mt Carmel and BethanyCentered in Jerusalem

    GNOSTICISM vs PAULINISM

    GNOSTICISMPAULINISM
    Worships a Heavenly Mother & Father called LIFE!Worships an intolerant God called YAHWEH!
    Encourages Woman priestesses & gender balanceWoman treated as second class property
    Uses Mandaic, Nag, & Manichaean textsUses Ezra's Torah & fabricated New Testament
    Worships as Nazoreans, allows only vegan foodWorships as Jews did, allows animal eating
    Tolerates other religionsPersecutes other religions & schools
    Monastics chant Gnostic PsalmsMonastics use Jewish Psalms
    Teaches natural birth and spiritual resurrectionTeaches supernatural birth & physical resurrection
    Encourages free thinking & personal responsibilityMandates conformity and blind obedience

    So if Jesus was a Nazarene as the bible points out, then it might do us well to learn what the nazarenes believed and taught, and see if it is in harmony with the bible. Which you'll find it is not.

    The bible is milk, don't get caught up in the words, remember it's the spirit behind the words that are important.
    (Jesus spoke in parables, remember?)

    Acadian

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    As I have written on the other thread (see link above), I would not enlist Paul on the side of the advocates for a "physical / bodily" resurrection of Jesus. Here are a few further comments on PaulE's post (welcome btw).

    Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15, described the resurrected body in the same way.

    He actually describes the resurrected believers as becoming spiritual bodies (somata pneumatika), as opposed to physical (or, more exactly, psychical, psukhika, from psukhè, soul, "natural" living being). Christ as the "second Adam," otoh, he describes as a "life-giving Spirit" (v. 45). And whenever he refers to Christ's body it's either the sacramental body given and shared in the Eucharist (chapter 11) or the mystical body which is the church living by Christ's spirit (chapter 12). Note that at this stage Christ is not described as the head of the body as in post-Pauline literature (e.g. Ephesians). Paul identifies Christ with the whole ecclesial body, or perhaps (I admit this is less explicit but it does make sense in view of the general Pauline identification of Jesus to the Spirit) as the Spirit of the whole ecclesial body.

    Of course the underlying issue is to what extent Paul considers the heavenly Son of God, Christ Jesus, as a real man in need of an individual resurrection body. I suggest that the thrust of Pauline christology is way more docetic than that (cf. Philippians 2:7; Romans 8:3).

    As for 1 Corinthians 15:3ff, whether it is Pauline or a later interpolation, one must note that it ignores the "empty grave" stories. Instead he mentions apparitions, earlier but not necessarily different in nature from that granted to Paul.

    Again, I do agree that most of the Gospel "empty grave" stories insist (heavily in Luke) on a physical / bodily resurrection -- but one should remember that they are probably much later than the core of Pauline theology.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Just to toss in a radical opinion, there as an early Christian view that jesus escapd death. This may be reflected in Heb. 5:7. Certainly there were early writers held that view in some form. The passion narative in Mark appears to some to have been secondary to the story, IOW added. Perhaps to better conform with Pauline soteriology.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    PP,

    The "young man" character in Mark, with the same elements (young man, white cloth) appearing both before and after the Passion narrative (in Gethsemani and the empty tomb), is strongly reminiscent of this "escape" version (regardless of whether Secret Mark is to be supposed in the background as Koester contends). So is the cry Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani on the cross (suggesting that the true Christ / Spirit which had empowered Jesus at baptism had left him, as was held by several adoptianist / Gnostic schools).

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Hey narkissos, I am ahrdly expert in these areas but the marked different approach of the beatitudes wherein reward comes to the righteous and lawful(called synergistic soteriology I think) and Pauline soteriology wherein one broken law disqualifies a person requiring the death of a Christ is rather obvious. What is your opinion about the origin of the passion narratives? (including G.Peter etc)

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    PP,

    I'm not sure I understood all the implications of your question, so sorry if I have missed the point. It seems to me that the Markan Passion narrative is quite consistent with the overall logic of GMark, with bears more Hellenistic / Pauline than Judeo-Christian influence. Imo the Passion narrative doesn't need to be either earlier or later than the core of Mark which is death-oriented enough (cf. the killing plot which is built through the controversies, the three Passion predictions, the "ransom" saying, the Isis-Osiris-like anointing for burial, etc.). If there is a tension between Jesus' teaching and the climactic representation of his death it is rather in Matthew -- but then we know where the Matthean Passion narrative comes from (i.e. from Mark) and why the story can no longer be avoided.

  • paulE
    paulE

    First I must say that I appreciate the depth of knowledge that is displayed on this board at times. It is helpful to me, as I like to continually check my beliefs, to make sure that they are not based on any lingering residue of JWism.

    I used the words in 1 Corinthians 15 to speak of Jesus resurrected body, because I believe that the resurrected body of Jesus and his followers will be very similar. Paul, in this chapter, calls Jesus the "firstfruits". How do firstfruits differ from the rest of the crop, except that they were harvested first? My reading of Galatians 3:21 gives me the same impression. Jesus will change or transform our lowly body, the body of our humiliation, to be like his glorious body. I feel that our resurrected body will be essentially the same in it's composition as that of Jesus.

    Using Paul to prove physical resurrection is controversial. From the first century, gnostics used Paul to prove that Jesus was not really physical, before or after his resurrection. Mainline Christians used the same verses to prove the opposite. But, in the late first and through out the second century, Christians such as Clement, Ignatius, Justin, Ireneus and Tertullian clearly taught Paul's words as meaning a physical body.

    It is true that the Gospel writers wrote from 40 to 70 years after the fact. But, I believe that there are good indications that they recorded very early oral traditions that started immediately after the resurrection. Here are a few of my reasons.

    1. Gospel accounts say that women were the first witnesses at the empty tomb and to see Jesus. This was a time period when women were considered dubious witnesses, not even allowed to testify in court. If the stories were a later invention, wouldn't more reliable witnesses be chosen?

    2. The appearance accounts contain no scriptural fulfillments. This is strikingly different from the rest of the gospel accounts. Everything from place of birth to riding into Jerusalem on a donkey was pointed out to fulfill a Hebrew Bible prophecy. This indicates to me that the stories spread before there was time to re-examine the Scriptures in the light of the recent event.

    3.No mention of human salvation. Jesus is resurrected, we saw him, we touched him, we ate with him and he told us to go witness to the world. Actual reports of what happen. The stories spread before there was time to reflect on the significance, as Paul later does. Peter does also.

    4. The bewilderment in describing Jesus body. It could be seen, felt, it could eat, it had scars, it could go through locked doors, it could ascend. Just the events that could be seen, felt, or heard. The stories spread early, before time for theological reflection as later done by Paul.

    For these reasons, I accept the the Gospel accounts of Jesus resurrection and appearances to be reflections of the stories that were told by the very early Christians.

    Once again, my friends, I appreciate your input. I count it as a contribution to my spiritual growth.

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