Jesus' Human Body

by UnDisfellowshipped 37 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Thanks PaulE

    I used the words in 1 Corinthians 15 to speak of Jesus resurrected body, because I believe that the resurrected body of Jesus and his followers will be very similar. Paul, in this chapter, calls Jesus the "firstfruits". How do firstfruits differ from the rest of the crop, except that they were harvested first?

    The question is, again, to Paul is Christ Jesus an average man in need of an individual resurrection, or the heavenly Son of God who assumes human nature and fate to transform it, changing death into resurrection? This, I think, is the limit of the comparison. Additionally, it's quite interesting to me that in Romans 8:23 aparkhè (firstfruits) qualifies the Spirit in believers.

    My reading of Galatians 3:21 gives me the same impression. Jesus will change or transform our lowly body, the body of our humiliation, to be like his glorious body. I feel that our resurrected body will be essentially the same in it's composition as that of Jesus.

    I think you mean Philippians 3:21, which speaks of conforming "our body of humiliation" (making it summorphon) to "the body of his glory" -- a transformation indeed, but not incompatible with the notion of a "collective body" of Christ. That it could be interpreted this way is consistent with (the probably post-Pauline) Colossians 3:4: "When Christ who is your life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with him in glory."

    As to the apparition stories, one problem for your thesis that they are very early is their gradual and diverging development. The first Gospel (Mark) has none of them (it might originally have had a Galilean apparition, but then it was lost; perhaps we have a later version of it in John 21). This is a very difficult fact to explain if the stories in Matthew, Luke and John are actually older than Mark.

    1. Gospel accounts say that women were the first witnesses at the empty tomb and to see Jesus. This was a time period when women were considered dubious witnesses, not even allowed to testify in court. If the stories were a later invention, wouldn't more reliable witnesses be chosen?

    This might be due to Mark's love of paradoxes. He adds a harder one by concluding (?) on the fact that the women who were asked to tell actually didn't tell anything, for they were afraid! This is quite unexplainable if (1) he wanted to seriously prove anything and (2) he knew earlier stories that the women did see the risen Lord and told it to the other disciples, etc.

    2. The appearance accounts contain no scriptural fulfillments. This is strikingly different from the rest of the gospel accounts. Everything from place of birth to riding into Jerusalem on a donkey was pointed out to fulfill a Hebrew Bible prophecy. This indicates to me that the stories spread before there was time to re-examine the Scriptures in the light of the recent event.

    If some OT parallel could be found for the apparition stories, I still see no reason why the late 1st-century Gospels (or even later Christian writers) would not have added them. And if no parallel could be found (even 2,000 years after) the argument vanishes...

    3.No mention of human salvation. Jesus is resurrected, we saw him, we touched him, we ate with him and he told us to go witness to the world. Actual reports of what happen. The stories spread before there was time to reflect on the significance, as Paul later does. Peter does also.
    4. The bewilderment in describing Jesus body. It could be seen, felt, it could eat, it had scars, it could go through locked doors, it could ascend. Just the events that could be seen, felt, or heard. The stories spread early, before time for theological reflection as later done by Paul.

    I disagree. The apparition stories have a clear theological agenda -- to prove the reality of Jesus' resurrection, and to provide a ground for the authority of the witnesses (cf. Acts 1:22; 1 Corinthians 15:3ff). Moreover the anti-docetic insistence (Jesus eats to show that he is not a "spirit," Luke 24:37,39) is clearly targeted at an earlier, docetic belief imo.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    The reason for all the confusion regarding the human (and immortal) body of Jesus that was resurrected is because of something no one has yet considered. The fact that Jesus raised His own body of flesh that everyone witnessed and used it here on earth for the 40 days of ministry to His disciples. This is after all what our Lord prophesied. Why is it that so many now refuse to believe Him? But the scriptures also teach that God raised Jesus or that the Spirit raised Jesus so how could this be? Did God raise this Jesus as such texts indicate? Yes, this is also true. But God did not raise His body of flesh as most think. Jesus did that himself after God restored Him to the glory He once had as the Logos. This was also promised and in prayer our Lord indicated that this is also what He expected to take place. So we learn: John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. This Logos now known as Jesus created the human race. Resurrection was not a problem for Him as He is the resurrection and the life. Raising His dead human body was now a simple matter. And making further use of it violated no rules of sacrifice as such further use did not change history. In fact such further use was anticipated and authorized for it was a commandment of God. So our Lord taught His disciples: Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Now restored to the glory of the Logos and empowered also as a human of flesh our Lord possesses a dual nature (a hypostasis nature) unique in the universe. He can use whichever nature is appropriate at any time and such dual use was demonstrated in scripture both in the flesh before His ascension and in glory when He appeared to Saul at his conversion. For this reason we can expect the physical return of our Lord in the flesh as promised and His Kingdom to be estalished here on earth as the apostles expected in Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? Joseph

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    Jesus did that himself after God restored Him to the glory He once had as the Logos.

    Did both happen on the third day? What time?

    Now restored to the glory of the Logos and empowered also as a human of flesh our Lord possesses a dual nature (a hypostasis nature) unique in the universe

    A hypostasis nature... What does hypostasis mean again? Edit: I guess you mean the hypostatic union of two natures in one person, as defined by orthodox theology (especially the Council of Constantinople in 553): namely, that the divine nature (the logos) is enhypostatic, assuming an anhypostatic (impersonal) human nature. A necessary trick to avoid the conclusion that there are two persons (hypostaseis) in Christ: there is but one person (hypostasis) and it is divine.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Narkissos,

    Essentially the same time or seamlessly on the third day.

    Hypostasis should be understood in its generic form not the Trinitarian form but similar.

    It is remarkable how close they were at the time in resolving this theology. They had all the data but went too far in applying it.

    Joseph

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    I strongly believe that Paul taught a resurection of the body in 1 Corinthians 15 (as the rest of the scriptures teach).

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/67303/1.ashx

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Hooberus, Yes he did and demonstrated this with the use of a seed. Here his use of terms such as flesh and blood for our present mortal body and spiritual for the God given one that will result has led many to the wrong conclusions. The immortal human body everyone that is raised by our Lord will receive will be much like the immortal human body that our Lord will use when He returns. After all the seed that was planted in our case was human and has no right to the dual nature or Kind that our Lord now has. Joseph

  • RevFrank
    RevFrank

    For those who really read the bible..in Luke 24:39 Jesus said Himself, after the resurrection, it ws His body.....yet the watchtower teaches the Jesus came back in a different body....No where in scripture does it say that Jesus came back in another body...

    Before death....Jesus' earlthly body..with blood in Him....After the resurrection His glorfied body....meaning Jesus was alive without the aid of blood. The same body.....only difference was....the subject of blood.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Sorry for the delay in responding Narkisssos, I was away. I was asking about the idea that the passion narrative was a separate unit at some point and that the final form of Mark incorporated it. Your argument is solid and I don't disagree, it all hinges upon the question of Markan vs. Matthean priority, sources, date of writing of Mark and its relationship with Pauline material.. I feel like a juggler with 6 balls in the air.

  • acadian
    acadian

    Here's something to consider...

    The Mystery of Resurrection

    1 Corinthians 15:44 (NIV)
    it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    1 Corinthians 15:44 (New American Standard Bible) 44

    it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    1 Corinthians 15:44 (The Message) 44 The seed sown is natural; the seed grown is supernatural--same seed, same body, but what a difference from when it goes down in physical mortality to when it is raised up in spiritual immortality!

    1 Corinthians 15:44 (Amplified Bible) 44 It is sown a natural (physical) body; it is raised a supernatural (a spiritual) body. [As surely as] there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.

    1 Corinthians 15:44 (New Living Translation) 44 They are natural human bodies now, but when they are raised, they will be spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, so also there are spiritual bodies.

    1 Corinthians 15:50 (New American Standard Bible) 50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

    1 Corinthians 15:44 (New Life Version) 44 It is a human body when it dies, but it is a God-like body when it is raised from the dead. There are human bodies and there are God-like bodies.

    Hmmm... what does it all mean?

    I think this next scripture says it well concerning understanding...

    1 Corinthians 2:14 (New American Standard Bible) 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

    Looks plain to me, but who am I to say?

    Acadian

  • heathen
    heathen

    I believe he was raised a spirit then raised his own flesh . I think when the bible speaks of jesus taking his ransom to his father is saying he was taking the physical body , which was the ransom he spoke of in some of the narratives. The bible has instances where it sounds as if God collects human bodies . For instance in the story of Elijah where he drops dead and a chariot comes down and takes him away or the story of moses where we find out in the new testament Michael and satan had a dispute over his body . Jesus was clear as well that nobody ascended to heaven before himself .

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