PROOF OF REBIRTH?

by Dansk 53 Replies latest jw friends

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    metatron:

    Instinctive knowledge in animals - It makes no sense to me to think that specific complex behaviors are actually programmed into the genome.

    And yet the evidence suggests that they are. Not all scientific ideas make sense at first glance.

    Rupert Sheldrake discusses this in his books, such as A New Science of Life.

    Sheldrake's ideas are not science. A better perspective on the subject might be found in Richard Dawkins' The Extended Phenotype

    Many animals gain these abilities apart from their parents training , as shown when they are raised separately.

    This is compatible with the behaviour being genetically programmed, as well as your supernatural model.

    About a hundred years ago, Vivekananda wrote a book called Vedanta - Voice of Freedom, in which he criticized the scientific ideas about heredity, wanting to know where these behaviors as well as the forms of complex animals were actually kept.

    He was probably unaware of the existence of the genetic code. If he were writing today, he would have no excuse for asking such a question.

    His questions seem all the more relevant today, now that Celera has declared that the human genome "is not a blueprint" - words that resonated in my ears.

    "Not a blueprint" - no, more like a recipe where the actual manifestation of the organism (the phenotype) is constrained by the genotype, but not entirely dependent on it. (e.g. Someone with "tall genes" needs to eat enough nutritious food to reach their potential height.)

    Maybe Plato was right all along and we're just watching the "shadows in the cave".....

    In some sense we are, and we're just arguing about what casts the shadows.

    If you ask some mothers, much of the personality of children seems already set at infancy - stubborness, shyness, curiosity and so on.

    Again, this is perfectly compatible with the prevailing scientific belief that a great deal of our personality is genetically determined.

    I also think that reincarnation would explain homosexuality, if a soul/spirit/thetan can return as the other gender.

    It would, but it's far more easily explained by a combination of genetics and environment (including but not limited to the womb), a theory that is well supported by a great deal of evidence.

    I will be interested to see if future stem cell treatments could restore the memories and abilities of Alzheimers patients. If memory seems to be "holographic", across the brain, then the functions and memories could still be there, just lost at the moment. The "whole" would be retained.

    Memory doesn't seem to be holographic, unfortunately. While individual memories can be stored in various locations in the brain, it does not seem to be the case that each cell or region of the brain contains the entirety of the memories or functions of the brain.

    I also strongly recommend all the books written by ex-CIA psychic spies beginning with The Infinite Mind by Russell Targ. The phenomena demonstrated by remote viewers suggests that, consistent with some physicists theories, consciousness might be unitary, that is, there is only one universal consciousness accessed by all minds! Scientists who lean towards Buddhism seem comfortable with this view - and it would explain a lot of paradoxes.

    OK then, what number am I thinking of? My consciousness appears to be contained inside my brain, and independent of the consciousness of any other. I'm sure it's "consistent with some physicists theories" but an idea has to be more than consistent to be worthy of consideration. Biologically, consciousness, while poorly understood, appears in every way to be a function of the individual brain and not connected to other consciousnesses in any meaningful sense.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    17 LOL

  • Dansk
    Dansk

    Hi Derek:

    I'm still particularly fascinated by the two stories cited, the little girl's, especially, is not unique. How could she possibly name all those relatives correctly?

    I don't know.

    That's the point! Nobody does! I admire and respect your scientific outlook because, let's face it, nothing should be taken on face value and evidence should be required. Gone are the days when I accept anything at face value anymore - but the child's account of her previous life is NOT a singular account and while there have been hoaxes in the past this is one case - and that of the other case I cited but for some reason the paragraphs didn't come out (see my post in the technical section) - which is accepted as being authentic, if unexplainable. The girl was even visited by a representative of the Dalai Lama (OK, not scientific) but I mention this to highlight how serious her story was taken.

    I am not a champion of the supernatural. I believe everything is natural even though some things are beyond our comprehension. Because some of us don't believe in rebirth doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I can no longer prove it is a reality than others can that it isn't. Please read the other story in the terchnical section, which I have asked to be reposted here.

    And what about Brenda's previous life reflections! There's also Ramana to consider! If anyone was a modern-day Saint it was him.

    Having literally come so close to death just a few months ago it holds no great fear for me now. If we all spent time researching for the scientific answers to our questions we would overlook the just as important spiritual ones. It is difficult to do both well. My path is spiritual but I do enjoy the scientific input. However, there is just as much danger in pushing forward the scientific model as being sacrosanct as there is the spiritual. This is another reason I love Buddhism so much, because I see no conflict with science.

    Thanks.

    Ian

  • belbab
    belbab

    I have studied the subject of rebirth for many years. In fact part of the reason for leaving the religion of JWs was because of past life experiences. When I have more time, I will post it here, along with one of my son.

    I have looked at it from my own experiences , from scientific viewpoint, from Biblical viewpoint, eastern writings, native aboriginal viewpoints.

    Funky Derek, regarding genetic explanations, many of the past life rememberances are the re-experiencing of traumatic death events. How can the rememberances be passed down through genetics if the person in the previous life by dying could not in any way pass down the genetic rememberances to his offspring? I welcom any comments you can give on this point.

    I agree with comments above that children do not come into this life, with a blank slate.

    Jesus said, (paraphrasing) that resurrected ones (ie those who stand up again) are like angels of heaven, neither marrying nor given in marriage. The only comprehension I can arrive at with this text is that, past life consciousneses influence the consciousness of the individual in this life. They are in the present individual's unconcious and can surface in times of crisis and influence us from the background so to speak.

    There is a simple method to access these rememberances. One time in a group of about ten people, young ones and older ones, some former JWs, when I told them about this, they said try it on us. More than half of them had experienced surprising rememberances that stunned them.

    Dansk, it is fine to search eastern writings for your discoveries. Most people do not want to go there. The evidence is close to home, probably within your self, or members of your own family.

    I consider that one of the greatest needs, at this time in history, is that people come to a firm realization that the sting of death will be no longer. Not that falling asleep in death disappears but the sting, the pain, the sorrow of death will be no more.

    One last quick comment. The Scripture about the debtor where a man owed a tremendous amount of money, and the master forgave him. That forgiven person then went out and tried to choke one denarious from someone who owed him. One denarius is one day's wage. Jesus told the man whose debt was forgiven that he would have to pay back every last denarius. If you calculate the time at one denarius a day, he would live many many days past one life time of 70 years.

    belbab, gotta go,

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    Who is reborn?

    I'm no Buddhist, but it has been gathered in my wanderings that Buddha clearly understood that there is no real personal, individual "self" to be reborn or reincarnated; and that any appearance of such was simply the mind generated world of suffering, or Samsara.

    On this matter Sri Ramana Maharshi, said: "Reincarnation exists only so long as there is ignorance. There is really no reincarnation at all, either now or before. Nor will there be any hereafter. This is the truth."

    The wisdom expressed by these men, if taken seriously to heart, can help dissolve forever the suffering shard of existence we believe ourselves to be, that there may be clear realization of our true pristine infinity. We are certainly free though to continue reinforcing and supporting Samsara; who, as I recall, had to sisters: Sally and Suzie Sara.

    j

  • metatron
    metatron

    As Sheldrake points out, forms or behaviors associated with this or that gene do not prove that such are programmed into the genome.

    A television set receives programs - it doesn't contain them. While Nature magazine may advocate "burning" Sheldrake's books, I find

    his logic to be unrefuted - and all too often unread! I've looked for a solid reply to Sheldrake's ideas but all I read is ridicule,

    not solid answers.

    I have long objected to the silliness of this metaphorical "landfill" in which seemingly everything is attributed to a comparatively small

    collection of genetic code. We share 25% of our code with bananas, for God's sake. More than that, a few enlightened scientists

    are starting to discuss epigenetics since the genes seem to directly encode proteins - and if the code is the same in all cells,

    from head to toe, then logically some organizing force must exist that is more powerful than genetic code and above it,

    so that differenciation can take place. We have the paradox that skin cells carry the same code as the heart or liver

    or brain, yet we are not just a pile of cellular goo. So, the blueprint must be elsewhere, if anywhere at all. Are we really

    only 1% different than a chimp, based on genome?

    As to memory, there were some gruesome experiments done on lab rats that involved chopping up different bits of their brain

    and seeing if they could still run a maze. After that, a holographic picture of memory emerged. Most of us are very familar

    with the phenomena of "knowing that you know something" ( like someone's name) but can't recall it. For me, the name usually

    appears within a few hours. How do we 'know' that we 'know' - when we don't know at present?? Some reseachers have pointed

    out that consciousness can be impossible to analyse or reduce because you end up with eternally shrinking versions of

    a "little man in your head" directing your thinking.......

    Suppose you have a biological index of memories - which is then referenced by some other brain component that requires

    nearly the same amount of knowledge to do its job referencing as the memory it references. This circularity is why scientists puzzle

    over consciousness.

    Just because we may be referenced to a universal consciousness, doesn't mean we can easily tap into each other.

    Sheldrake isn't the first to suggest that a collective consciousness could exist amidst social creatures in particular.

    Neither is he the first to suggest some sort of psychological background of archetypes like Jung. If archetypes, why

    not more?

    The editor of Red Herring magazine made a powerful point about efforts at artificial intelligence in an editorial.

    He pointed out that the Japanese had spent billions trying to reduce intelligence to a set of axioms or programming

    code and failed. He concluded that intelligence/ consciousness is thereby not reduceable to any simple set of rules.

    I'd say that was the first admission of many yet to come.

    metatron

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Are you telling us that some days you don't feel like you're going bananas???

  • Dansk
    Dansk

    James,

    You're doing it again!

    Who is reborn?

    I'm no Buddhist, but it has been gathered in my wanderings that Buddha clearly understood that there is no real personal, individual "self" to be reborn or reincarnated; and that any appearance of such was simply the mind generated world of suffering, or Samsara.

    On this matter Sri Ramana Maharshi, said: "Reincarnation exists only so long as there is ignorance. There is really no reincarnation at all, either now or before. Nor will there be any hereafter. This is the truth."

    The wisdom expressed by these men, if taken seriously to heart, can help dissolve forever the suffering shard of existence we believe ourselves to be, that there may be clear realization of our true pristine infinity.

    For the sake of this forum and people in general one has to use words and terms one can identify with. I accept there is no "Self" or "I" and that ego is what binds us to Samsara. But we are stuck with English as our main language - at least here - and, therefore, have to use words in our language which, I admit, are often lacking in getting at the essence of true meaning. Rather than say a soul or identity is passed over/reborn/reincarnated how about saying 'consciousness', then?! Would you accept 'consciousness' - as a word - for that "something" being reborn/reincarnated?

    I, too, would like to experience Nirvana or pristine infinity - but how does one explain that in simple terms? Better men than you and I have tried! Until we get rid of ignorance, yes, we will be bound to Samsara (how many people here understand what Samsara is?).

    All I'm trying to do here is show that death isn't the true end and that rebirth/reincarnation events/stories, if proven, point to this fact and that thereafter one can do one's own research. Great comfort can be derived from taking this further and, as you say, from following the wisdom of Buddha and Ramana (but, hopefully, the reader will be wary of allying him/herself to any particular school which, I have found, can severly detract from the original message and, therefore, miss its purpose entirely).

    On other threads I have listed a number of books which, I feel, simplify the message of how to achieve enlightenment. I have derived immense comfort from these works, especially in my present condition. I should like others to experience the same comfort - the same message of hope and the achievement of true FREEDOM.

    Ian

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    metatron:

    Sheldrake is ridiculed by real scientists for the same reason that people like Graham Hancock are ridiculed by real historians, and the Watchtower Society is ridiculed by real theologians. Please read the scientific information available on the subject if you're interested in learning about it.

    Dansk:

    Rather than say a soul or identity is passed over/reborn/reincarnated how about saying 'consciousness', then?! Would you accept 'consciousness' - as a word - for that "something" being reborn/reincarnated?

    I wouldn't! Consciousness already has a meaning. If there is a "something" reborn/reincarnated, it does not correspond well to the phenomenon of consciousness as we commonly use the word. Call it a soul or spirit instead, or make up a new word but please don't confuse the issue by borrowing words that already have distinct meanings.

  • Dansk
    Dansk

    FunkyDerek:

    consciousness as we commonly use the word. Call it a soul or spirit instead

    The Dalai Lama said: “The basis on which Buddhists accept the concept of rebirth is principally the continuity of consciousness……”

    But soul or spirit would infer that "something" such as a "person" is passed over from life to life, which is NOT what rebirth is about. I suppose it is the "essence" of the person (English is very limited). I prefer the Dlaia Lama's meaning above. How does this confuse the issue? It is exactly what Jonathan Millar said, also, i.e. "Where does consciousness go?"

    Ian

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