Why Does God Allow Evil?

by Frenchy 58 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AhHah

  Welcome bjc.

  I am also inclined to believe what you said about God revealing himself to everyone, if our salvation depends on it. The scriptural evidence you presented for that is very convincing. It also seems more consistent with God's love, than to think that there would be no clear way of identifying acceptable worship and therefore condemning most of us. Thanks very much for that encouragement!

  I am excited that we have several new posters, including yourself, sharing thoughts in just the last couple of days! I sincerely hope that you and Theo and Defender and TR (sorry I missed welcoming you TR!) will continue to jump in and share anything that is important to you and join in any threads you would like. I am new here, but I have begun to feel very welcome and comfortable lately sharing my thoughts. As outspoken as I tend to be, that says much about the tolerance of this group, don't you think? So, everyone, please don't hesitate to join in and share your thoughts!

  Btw, bjc, would you like to post a response to the survey? It is entitled "Do you believe ..." and is on the Bible Research forum. You and the other new posters may also enjoy reading many recent threads such as "God and Religion", "How about a survey", and several others. There have been many interesting topics discussed recently with very good participation!

  Interesting name ... any significance?

  Edited by - AhHah on 13 October 2000 18:33:25
• 

  RedhorseWoman

  I have been reading the various posts, but I haven't had any thoughts clearly together on this, so I've refrained from adding anything.

  I don't know if I have a clear concept of it even now; however, I'll express a few thoughts.

  I tend to agree with Frenchy in much of this. I've found from my own experience that things I have had to endure have made me stronger, and I've also found that as the years have passed, I've met others who are going through similar things. Because of my having experienced such things previously, I'm able to offer some help and understanding.

  Does this make it fair? Definitely not, but I do feel a sense of comfort knowing that I might possibly have been able to lessen someone else's pain by relating my own experiences.

  Conversely, I have often prayed for strength and received it. I have prayed for comfort and received it. I have prayed for very specific material needs, and I have received these also.

  I have tapped into healing forces beyond my abilities alone, and helped animals to recover from illness and injury.

  Perhaps part of the answer is that God is allowing us to grow....allowing us to combat evil....allowing us to transcend mere humanity to reach out and comfort others who are suffering so that they, too, may grow strong and help others in turn.
• 

  Frenchy

  AhHah
  I think that we agree more than we realize (smile). The short responses we have been making and the homing in on narrow, specific statements has somehow distorted each other’s view of what the other believes. ( I believe!) One thing that leads me to think this way is your statement “I am somehow hoping that I will hear something that will allow me to have faith again, not just that God exists… that he cares.” I have said this many times about hearing something that will show me where I am wrong about the WTS. As I mentioned previously my disillusionment with the WTS affected my faith in God and so I prayed for the same thing you stated.
  Reading over my posts I know that I am not making myself clear. It’s difficult to elaborate on one’s beliefs on such a weighty subject, one that is clearly not simple, with one or two paragraph responses. I don’t intend on writing an essay on my beliefs (at least not here) because who wants to read an essay? I will continue to attempt to answer your questions as honestly (and briefly) as I can. There is no need to apologize for your questions or opinions. You told me once that you mean no malice and I accept that completely. Thank you for your kind words to Seven and myself. I enjoy reading your posts as well.
  The following is my personal opinion and pure conjecture. Continue at your own risk!
  

  Frenchy, the first scripture that comes to mind is Christ's reassurance that there will be a resurrection to life and a resurrection to judgment. Using the Bible, I only understand that those who sin against the holy spirit have no hope, and that only God can make that judgment.

  That is my understanding as well.
  

  I understand that to mean that non-believers will also share in the resurrection, and hence the reason for my statement.

  
  Agreed. But the resurrection is not salvation. There is also Paul’s statement at Acts 24:15 which states that there is going to be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. Again, this is the resurrection and not salvation. So what does this scripture mean? Our sense of justice and fairness tells us that people (for a multitude of reasons) who are not given a fair chance to begin with must be given another chance. God’s justice is certainly no less than ours. (Interesting side note: This is what the WTS actually says but then they take this and twist it to define the ‘unrighteous’ as those that do not become JW’s)
  This system of things (A WT term but appropriate nonetheless I believe) will serve its purpose one day. The end is very near! Just kidding, no one really knows. When that day arrives God’s purpose will have been worked out and we shall have gone through what was necessary to achieve to whatever level that God intended for us. Meanwhile we continue to die. Many individuals will ‘fall through the cracks’ of this world, i.e. infants, the mentally ill, those isolated from society, etc. There are others that will simply ‘not get it’, the atheists and agnostics, etc. These will not be able to experience what it is that we as humans must. There has to be a provision for them.
  I believe that ultimately there will be a judgment day, a time when we will stand before God and answer for our actions. So ‘the resurrection’ is not the end. Whether this resurrection is to life again on earth or to heaven, it is only yet another stage in our eventuality.
  I believe in a final test. I believe that this test will be very simple in nature, like the one Adam and Eve were given. The test was simple enough. They believed that God existed because the record says that Adam talked to him. Eve had evidently been convinced of his existence also. Why did they sin? They did not even consider sinning until they were convinced that there would be no punishment for their crime. And so it will be with the final test. Once we are convinced that there will be no consequence for disobedience what will we do? Your statement, AhHah: “If we did not die, I think that would dramatically change the nature of religions, if not eliminate them.” True. If we serve out of fear of punishment for disobedience then that service is not acceptable by God. Or if we serve God only for what he will give us instead of out of gratitude for what he has given us it is of little value to God. I think that the whole test will hinge on faith and on our wanting to do what is right for the sake of right. While aware of the statement from God of the consequences of disobedience, there will come a time when there will be a question of it actually happening. Death is not so much a punishment for, but rather a result of sin. At that time, when the consequence of sin is no longer certain, what will we do? I believe some of that testing is going on now to some extent but that in the end, on judgment day, it will come to its climax.
  Adam and Eve stole the fruit for what they supposed it would give them. Perhaps the way Satan presented this to Eve might have caused her to assume this was where God got his knowledge and consequently his authority to make the rules. In a way, like all true liars, the devil was not completely wrong, was he? They came to know good and bad. We are coming to know good and bad. We are having to learn that some of the ‘bad’ is actually temporarily pleasurable but that its eventuality is very detrimental. We are learning that we cannot make the ‘bad’ ‘good’ just because we might benefit temporarily from it. We are learning also that ‘good’ often comes at a price, a very high price. We are learning that true freedom involves a willful and deliberate forfeiture of what we might well consider to be our unalienable rights. We are learning that giving is far better than receiving. We are not just hearing and reading these words but we are learning what they actually mean.
  I believe that at a certain point a person will have to first want to believe in God before he can go any further. Forget what people outwardly profess about whether they believe in God or not. Way down deep inside is what counts, it’s where God looks and judges. Perhaps much deeper than we are able to go ourselves to look.
  In this enlightened age we are faced with much disbelief. The Bible itself is filled with what surely looks like contradictions on many levels. People are praying and God is not manifesting himself although his Son clearly stated that if you asked you would receive, that if you had faith the size of a mustard seed you could move mountains. What will we do in the face of all this ‘evidence’ of God’s non-existence or of his non-concern with us? Will we do what is right for the sake of right? Will we choose to believe in God because down deep inside of us we know that there has to be such a God? Do we not have a ‘definition’ of God within us, a deep seated ‘knowledge’ of who and what God should be? Can he truly be any less? I believe that God is far grander than any of us can ever imagine.
  I’ll stop now. I’ve written more than I intended already.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  Edited by - Frenchy on 14 October 2000 9:19:37

  Edited by - Frenchy on 14 October 2000 9:24:49
• 

  AhHah

  Frenchy,

  Thanks for the elaboration and your kind reassurances. Yes, it does seem that our impressions are closer than we thought.

  I see a few main points surfacing in our discussion here:

  1. We agree that the Bible teaches a resurrection for believers and un-believers.

  2. We agree that the Bible teaches that there will be testing and judging for salvation after the resurrection. (Although, in the scriptures that clearly refer to a heavenly resurrection, there would not seem to be any judging. Physical vs spiritual resurrection is another discussion.) Of course, any judging after a resurrection would imply that the individual now has first hand knowledge of God's existence and love. That is much different and is a much more fair concept for judgment, than killing humans on earth.

  3. Who we are and what we do with our lives seems to be more important than a mere profession of belief. Especially when a person learns the value and beauty of self-sacrifice for love and the joy of giving something truly meaningful to the lives of others.

  4. Our impressions of a judgment day from God seem to be different. Not, however, because we disagree on what the Bible teaches. It is because I do not believe that the Bible's teachings on this are logically consistent with a loving, all-powerful Creator. It sounds more like the God of the old testament. Christ spoke of a resurrection to judgment, but he never in my recollection described an Armageddon where God will kill living humans who do not suit him. He did describe a great tribulation where no flesh would be saved unless God intervened for the purpose of saving people, not destroying them. In the same discussion he in fact described tribulation at the hands of the lawless. It could be argued that he also draws a parallel there to the flood of Noah, but still, he does not explicitly state that the tribulation marking his coming would be from God, only that it would similarly be unexpected by most and swift -- just like the destruction of Jerusalem. In Matt. 25: 31-46 Christ does indeed describe a judgment associated with his coming where some would be judged unworthy of eternal life. But where and when does this occur? Does it necessarily imply that humans would be killed on earth? I am not convinced that it does. I am aware of the book of Revelation, of course, but I don't think that most (other than JWs) would presume to know which parts should be considered literal. But even if Armageddon is meant to be taken literally, I cannot accept it as from God. I am inclined to believe that there will be no killing of living humans by God, that the afterlife is assured, and that then, and only then, are we able to truly know God, his purpose, and therefore qualify for any judgment that God may have in mind. If this is true, then at that point there will of course be no un-believers, and most likely no one would then want to hold on to any past evil that may have previously defined them.

  5. I guess that is another area where we differ, in that I am less inclined to believe that all of the Bible must be accepted as from God.

  Edited by - AhHAh on 14 October 2000 15:9:7

  Edited by - AhHAh on 14 October 2000 15:47:15
• 

  Seven

  Red,

  I have tapped into healing forces beyond my abilities alone...

  I hear that. We're both living proof of this.I also admire you for the work you do with the animals who need our love too. You're a good woman, Red.Seven
• 

  bjc2012

  Hi AhHah,

  I'm not exactly new on this board. But thanks for the welcome anyway. I am more of a lurker than a poster. I do read all of the posts and if I find something that interests me, I will post a reply. I will answer your survey, however.

  Yes, the name has significance, but that is a long story, one that I won't get into right now.
  I am very much interested in this topic. However, it seems to have gotten quite long and I may start another post under a different name.

  bjc
• 

  AhHah

  Red,

  Your post brings up a very interesting point. The apparent power of prayer and the resultant confirmation of faith in an individual's concept of God, which can differ from one person to the next.

  There were times when I felt that my prayers had been answered. Now, I find myself wondering if that was from God or simply another demonstration of the power of positively focusing one's thoughts and actions, as some self-help programs teach. Faith causes prayer, prayers seemingly answered reaffirm faith -- a self-confirming cycle. This seems to serve most people in positive ways. But what if the prayer is for strength to carry out what, in faith, one perceives to be God's will, and that will seems to the individual to require an act of violence or terrorism, such as a suicide bombing? Then we would probably presume that the person was mistaken, that the strength he received to carry out a suicide terrorist mission for his God was not really from God (at least not from our God) right? But then, how would that person know the difference?

  I know. This is not a very comforting thought. But such is the world we live in.
• 

  Pathofthorns

  I think prayer provides some sort of personal comfort and strength in that the person asking or talking to God in faith gains such because he has confidence he is not facing his problems alone.

  Prayers of a specific nature that seem to be answered can be perplexing, since no answer is said to be an answer in itself, therefore covering all the bases.

  But if the individual asks and feels he has recieves, what harm is it to credit God? There's probably more satisfaction crediting God than chance.

  As far as one's health goes, it raises the difficult position of what about all the others that die with unanswered prayers? Was their faith somehow weaker? Why does one live and another die?

  I do believe we are spiritual creatures, and as such I personnally find the same comfort and strength in prayer. I can't answer the difficult questions, but i don't think i need to have all the answers to believe.

  Path
• 

  AhHah

  bjc,

  Look forward to your next post.

  How about just a hint about your name -- maybe we can try to guess what it means.
• 

  Frenchy

  Path:
  I too have wrestled with the problem of whether or not prayers are answered and in what manner. There is no question that all sorts of people pray and some of the things they pray for happen. Some of the things they pray for do not. This seems to happen indiscriminately among the ‘good’ and the ‘bad’. I have no real explanation for this.
  Should one pray, then? I do. Are my prayers answered? Sometimes the things I ask for happen, sometimes they don’t.
  (puzzled look on my face)

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-