Why Does God Allow Evil?

by Frenchy 58 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  waiting

  Hey y'all,

  God had to let this be settled,

  Why? We've been taught to "turn the other cheek" if insulted, etc. To suggest that God couldn't do the same to Satan (if literal interaction between him and Satan in heaven in the book of Job), would seem to suggest not a "big-hearted" God. [b] Why couldn't God say to Satan, in front of all the other angels, "You are wrong, I am right, I am God, and I will not stoop to your level." And He could have destroyed Satan right there, period.

  Why did God have to prove His point to satisfy the angels questioning about His right to rule the universe? He is God, thus He has the right and power. If He really is All Good and All Love, then He doesn't need puny humans to prove that point - He is the Point.

  Not even the Bible says that the non-believer does not return. I am unable to reconcile why an all-powerful, loving God would deny any afterlife he has planned for humans, simply because the person was not able to become convinced of his existence.

  I've been wondering about that point too. What does God want from us? What is our test - to survive His test? To love him? To obey him? To do good works? All the above? What if we succeed in doing one or two better then all?

  I have raised as many as 12/15 dogs-cats at a time (outdoors, btw), most liked me a lot - some of the cats could have cared less. Did I kill the cats because they didn't show love for me like my Labradors?

  Would I be considered the more intelligent, more loving and emotionally secure ruler if I had killed the cats who didn't obey, or love, me? But one dumb old female was an excellent mother - loved to watch her with her kittens. However, she was aloof and somewhat void of personality and expression, ugly to boot. But she excelled in what she was good at - would it be All Loving and All Kind to kill her because she did not love me?

  I know this does not explain my point well, but we are taught that "God's ways are above our ways, His thought above our thoughts." We are "grasshoppers" in his eyes. Pawns in the game between Satan and Jehovah. Subjects to let die horrible deaths to prove His point to the angels.

  Perhaps that's not much different than me having life and death over my animals. After all, I can legally kill them - and I can love them - or just leave them alone. Not much different than God and us in a lot of ways.

  Sure glad my dogs love me so I don't have to kill them.

  waiting
• 

  AhHah

  Waiting,

  I thought that your illustration of whether or not to murder those of your pets who don't seem to acknowledge or love you was excellent and really makes the point. (I'll bet you always got a 'G' on that speech counsel point.)

  When you put it like that it seems ridiculous, doesn't it?

  **************************************************
  If a loving God wants everyone to believe in him, and if it is so important that everyone's afterlife depends on it, then why doesn't God personally reveal himself to every person on the planet? Is he just too busy? Is our afterlife not important enough?

  Or, does everyone get an afterlife no matter what, and then God reveals himself, as we are then better able to understand the revelations?

  Edited by - AhHah on 13 October 2000 2:11:26
• 

  Seven

  Frenchy,

  A long time of observance of men and nature have given me reason to hope and consequently have faith that there is a God. If there is then I believe that he is the one that Jesus described and imitated.

  There are many things in nature which I believe without being able to grasp it fully with my mind. I believe because I have the evidence of others, though not of my own senses. The exercise of faith
  increases our spirituality and enables us to comprehend the incomprehensible. I always looked upon faith as being God's gift.Seven
• 

  AhHah

  Seven,

  If God expects us to believe and even die for beliefs that are incomprehensible, then why then did God give us a rational mind capable of the discussions that we are having?

  Can one truly comprehend the incomprehensible?

  If faith is God's gift and increases spirituality, then how should one feel about oneself if one does not have faith, or if one's faith wavers?

  Since so many have devout faith in totally contradictory concepts of God, are all of them receiving a gift of faith from God? If so, does it matter then in what one has faith? If not, then what is the value of the faith if it causes different people to believe that they comprehend totally different concepts of God? If they are equally valuable, then what incomprehensible truths are real?

  Does it really just come down to the fact that we prefer to believe in God because it feels better than not believing? If so, then would you agree that there is no basis for presumimg that others will be judged by God according to our personal faith and concept of God?
• 

  Frenchy

  Seven
  

  The exercise of faith increases our spirituality and enables us to comprehend the incomprehensible. I always looked upon faith as being God's gift.

  
  I fully agree. I believe without understanding the mechanisms that are at work here. That is not to say that I would not like to know. I do know however that there is a hole in our souls that cries out to be filled. I believe that it is a space had has set aside in us for him.
  -----
  AhHah
  The first man in the Bible mentioned as having faith was Abraham. (Gen 15:6) Paul refers to him as “the father of all those having faith while in uncircumcision.” (Ro 4:11) A careful reading of Jehovah’s early dealings with Moses will reveal the importance that God placed on faith in him. (Ex 14:31; Exodus 19:9; Num 14:11) However, even those that believed in his existence (as was surely the case even among those mentioned in those scrptures cited above) were not automatically ‘saved’. Moses was reprimanded for having a lack of faith in one particular instance. (Num 20:12) God did not take it too well when individuals spoke abusively of him either. (Chron 32: 16-23)
  The Scriptures tell us that the demons believe and shudder. “You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.” (James 2:19 NWT) We can only have faith in God whereas the demons would have first hand knowledge of his existence and yet that knowledge of his existence will not get them life. So obviously I’m not saying that belief in God is sufficient for salvation. But it starts there.
  

  “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Matt 7:21 NWT

  Jesus says here that ‘the one doing the will of my Father…will’. Requirements exist for salvation. The fool says in his heart,“There is no God.” - Ps 14:1; 53:1 NIV. This is a very small sampling of the Bible’s association of salvation with faith in God. It is inconceivable to me that one could read the Bible and come away with that concept. This is the first time I have ever heard someone say “Not even the Bible says that the non-believer does not return.”
  

  I find some atheists to be much more "God-like" in their actions than many "Christians" that I have known

  And I know some “Christians” that are much better neighbors than some “atheists”. What does that prove?
  

  I believe that the threat of no after life is a very human, unloving device to enslave others with fear.

  It can also be argued that hiding one’s head in the sand does not make the danger go away.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  Edited by - Frenchy on 13 October 2000 9:14:58
• 

  Frenchy

  Waiting
  

  Why? We've been taught to "turn the other cheek" if insulted, etc. To suggest that God couldn't do the same to Satan (if literal interaction between him and Satan in heaven in the book of Job), would seem to suggest not a "big-hearted" God. Why couldn't God say to Satan, in front of all the other angels, "You are wrong, I am right, I am God, and I will not stoop to your level." And He could have destroyed Satan right there, period.

  
  My father died when I was only fifteen. Mom went nuts, had to go to a mental health clinic for a while. After that she was never the same person again. I had one brother and three sisters to look after. Even after I was married I still kept an eye ‘on the kids’. I grew up fast and had to handle problems at a very early age. All my life people have come to me with problems that they have. I am neither bragging nor complaining here but just trying to illustrate a point. People have been coming to me for a long time with problems. It took me a long time to understand that the problem is not always stated completely and accurately. As a result, the solution offered (based on only a portion of the facts) often had less than satisfactory results. Now there are many reasons a person will not tell you the whole story. People are not always thorough. People forget or misinterpret an action or situation. People are naturally biased. People will sometimes present as fact what someone else has said. People will sometimes distort or omit a fact to keep face. The list goes on.
  The point is: The solution to a problem (or issue) with which you are not completely acquainted is seldom possible. No human is privy to knowing the issue/issues involved here. Now and then if we look real hard we can see certain principles emerging but we don’t see the entire picture here. Of that I am completely convinced. In a riddle, for example, you are given facts but in such a way to make them contradictory or even impossible. Once you have the answer, then it all makes sense. Did the riddle lie? No, else it would not serve its purpose would it? Most riddles are for amusement and entertainment. Obviously this one serves a higher purpose. In the end we will know the answer. In our quest to resolve these strange ‘contradictions’ and ‘impossibilities’ perhaps we will learn lessons not possible otherwise.
  As I have stated before I do not believe this to be a show put on by God just to prove a point to the angels as has been suggested. Nor do I believe it’s just an exercise to demonstrate to the Devil that God is right and he is wrong. Nor do I believe it’s just an experiment that God is conducting just to see what we will do. Somehow this is something that we must go through that will, in the end, teach us lessons and develop us to the stage that God has designed us to attain. After all is said and done and we are told the answer to the riddle we will then know that there was no other possible answer.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
• 

  Seven

  AhHah, My God loves my rational mind which is capable of discussions like those we are having. I
  spent over half of my life(25yrs)outside of the WT-having faith in a God who loved and approved of me. One who would much rather I bring a meal to
  an elderly neighbor than to place literature-truly to love my neighbor as myself. It was more of a personal relationship where I didn't need an organization or "leaders" using their own fractured twisting of scripture to distort my every thought and view of the world and it's people. Why my family chose to become members of a
  cult, I don't know. I was forced to go along, but I never was able to surrender my heart and mind. Can one truly comprehend the incomprehensible? I have no idea. What truths are real? What is real to me is to awake each morning and use my resources, talents and time to help others get through another day on this rock-to make my brothers lives a little easier. Whatever one chooses to be a part of-Methodist, Baptist, Islam, Atheist, Pagan-whatever. DO SOMETHING constructive for someone. Give of yourself-your, time or money. It matters not, just get off of our
  collective asses and be participants not spectators. I don't believe in God because it feels better than not to believe. It's because I know that I know. I cannot explain this. I just believe. This is my church. This is my religion. I'll leave God's judgement to God. I don't live my
  life and my actions aren't determined by the fear of some divine punishment. Good questions, AhHah.
  Seven
• 

  AhHah

  Seven and Frenchy,

  I really enjoyed reading both of your posts. They were very thoughtful, honest, and refreshing in your belief in your own faith.

  I also appreciate that you understood my motives for the questions. I believe that I am somehow hoping that I will hear something that will allow me to have faith again, not just that God exists (I believe that), but also that he cares.

  I would like to apologize to both of you if I come across as critical in my posts. I am very analytical and very interested in getting very specific answers. I believe that I am also still angry sometimes when I think about how I became a victim of my trust and faith that was abused by an organization. Unfortunately, that anger also comes through in my posts sometimes. Thank you both for kindly understanding that I am not angry with anyone here and for not taking offense when I am not as gentle with my posts as you two are.

  “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Matt 7:21 NWT. Jesus says here that ‘the one doing the will of my Father…will’. Requirements exist for salvation. The fool says in his heart,“There is no God.” - Ps 14:1; 53:1 NIV. This is a very small sampling of the Bible’s association of salvation with faith in God. It is inconceivable to me that one could read the Bible and come away with that concept. This is the first time I have ever heard someone say “Not even the Bible says that the non-believer does not return.”

  Frenchy, the first scripture that comes to mind is Christ's reassurance that there will be a resurrection to life and a resurrection to judgment. Using the Bible, I only understand that those who sin against the holy spirit have no hope, and that only God can make that judgment. I understand that to mean that non-believers will also share in the resurrection, and hence the reason for my statement. Wouldn't you agree? Does the difference in our understanding have to do with the possibility of a direct judgment and execution by God as opposed to dying of "natural causes". I do not currently believe that God will murder "unbelievers" in a judgment day.

  It can also be argued that hiding one’s head in the sand does not make the danger go away.

  I have a difficult time trying to understand why a loving all-powerful God would want us to believe out of fear that he will kill us (or deny afterlife, etc.). I believe that we project our own fear of death onto our fear of disbelieving/not serving God. If we did not die, I think that would dramatically change the nature of religions, if not eliminate them.

  Edited by - AhHah on 13 October 2000 14:0:8

  Edited by - AhHah on 13 October 2000 14:14:55
• 

  Seven

  AhHah, I too enjoy reading your posts. You need not apologize for wanting specific answers. You're
  okay, AhHah. I hope someday you too will see or hear something that will restore your faith. The day of miracles is not past, like we believed as Witnesses. Tumors have been removed, weak organs strengthened or transplanted-by Jesus' miraculous power in response to the prayer of faith. While not setting aside the human skills or
  assistance, we should be constantly expecting from God greater things rather than less. Seven
• 

  bjc2012

  AhHah,

  You said: If a loving God wants everyone to believe in him, and if it is so important that everyone's afterlife depends on it, then why doesn't God personally reveal himself ot every person on the planet?

  I, for one, do not think that this is unreasonably. I believe it is exactly what God will do. There is so much confusion about religion that it is almost impossible for the average person to sort through it. And, after we found that the JWs don't have the answers,it is doubly confusing for us as we once believed that we were right, that we had all truth!

  A scripture that we used so often in the door-to-door work, Isaiah 2:2-4, I believe, shows that Jehovah is going to make it impossible for anyone to be able to say to Him,'I did not know which religion was right.' Notice that "the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains (all of them) and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills, (all of them)...." If, as you say, he wants all of us to worship him, then His worship must be made easily recognizable. We shouldn't have to debate about it. The right religion should be elevated to the extent that if a person chooses to accept something else, it would be a deliberate choice to pick the wrong one, and Jehovah would be within his rights to take his life, eternally. He will be proven to be a God of justice just as he has said.

  Jehovah's Witnesses, have, so far, proven to be only a land. (Daniel 11:41) But, if you notice verse 45, when the King of the North returns, he finds a "holy mountain of Decoration." So, God's people have been elevated. And as such, they can now do as Isaiah 2:3 says: "And many peoples will certainly go and say: "Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths."

  I don't think you will disagree with me when I say that this prophesy has not been fulfulled, therefore it has a future fulfillment. That is to say, you can accept this if you believe the Bible to be the word of God.

  bjc