Advice, please! Concerning the 2 witness rule

by whyizit 17 Replies latest jw friends

  • whyizit

    My friend, who is not yet baptised in the WT, but is well on her way and very defensive of the WT, kind of led me into a conversation about how there has to be two witnesses for immoral acts, etc....(I guess someone recently got caught with another guy's wife, and it took a little detective work, because there has to be 2 witnesses.) I brought up child molestors. What does the WT do in those cases? And what kind of back-ground checks do they do, in order that they aren't sending offender to the doors of single women with children? Of course, she sent me all the Scriptures about how you can only accuse someone when there are 2 witnesses. I thought this would be a good topic to maybe open her eyes a little, because she was a victim of a molestor and I guarantee there were not 2 witnesses! Do you have any good "reasonable" questions that I could use as a come-back to the 2-witness defense? Especially in child abuse cases?

    Any help is greatly appreciated!

  • rebel8

    Hi & welcome. 1st check here: I'm looking up some more for you. be back in a minute.

  • greendawn

    As much as the two witness rule may appear reasonable, all child molesters and all rapists will make sure as much as they can that there will be no witnesses to their actions, and usually they succeed. That means, virtually none will ever be dealt with by the dub system.

  • rebel8

    This is from the elders' handbook, a manual given to JW elders only that they use in disciplinary cases.

    Before forming a [judicial] committee, elders determine if the accu-
    sation has substance.

    It must Scripturally be an offense serious enough to
    result in disfellowshipping.

    There must be either two witnesses or a confession of

    If there is not enough evidence to form a committee
    but serious questions have been raised, two elders may
    be assigned to investigate the matter.

    Basically, the rule is there must be 2 witnesses to wrongdoing in order for it to be considered true. It does not have to be the same instance of wrongdoing but could be 2 instances of the same type, such as 2 separate ppl who witnessed 2 separate rapes by the same accused person. The rule is to pressure the victim to confront the accused. Both of these rules are ridiculous in molestation and rape cases.

    Those are the rules, but that doesn't mean they are followed 100% (or even most) of the time.

  • happy man
    happy man

    If you sleep over the night in a house, widh a woman and it is nowan more ther, it dont need two wittneses to wrongdoing, it is inaff that you have sleept over alone, one of my children (over 25), was sleeping in the same department as hes two freinds ,both girls, and he was almost dfd, nothing immoral happend, and no wittneses to that something wrong happend, still on restriktions.

    Ask your friend how it is possibel, when it comes to abuse of children it is very important widh two wittneses, but in other cases you dont need any wittnes at all, as in the case I told here, unbelvebel ..

    Not anyone hade any explanaition to this terribel unjust system, when I ask, not even the CO.

  • Gerard
  • Confession

    Just wanted to reiterate a point the Rebel made... This comes directly from the "Pay Attention To Yourselves and the Flock" book--the elders' manual.

    If there are two or three witnesses to the same kind of

    wrongdoing but each one is witness to a separate incident,

    their testimony can be considered.

    It is understood by many that the WTS will only accept the testimony of two witnesses to any one incident, but as you can see there is actually a provision for two witnesses to separate incidents. The problem is with the word "can." Some committees have apparently decided that "can" means "you can if you feel like it." Therefore this is not always used.

    Obviously no one should be in the position of having their life ruined because one person accused them of something they didn't do. And if the WTS wants to keep this rule as a congregational matter, that's certainly up to them. The real problem is when victims and their families are influenced--and even threatened--not to report the matter to authorities.

    Pedophilia is an issue that requires the handling of experts--both to professionally determine the veracity of the accusation--and get the child the therapy they may need. The WTS needs to change their policy to include informing victims and their families of their rights and responsibilities when such a thing happens. And they must ensure that anyone who does go forward does not come under any shunning or congregational disfavor.

  • DannyHaszard

    'Two Witness' Take-Down is a subterfuge exploited by Jehovah's Witnesses that is selectively enforced by elders who play favorites and fast & loose with the truth Good excuse to ignore and suppress evidence at whim,e.g.-dude where's your two witnesses?

  • MsMcDucket

    I say after the event happens, go to the ER, and get the rape kit thing done. If this is not possible, the person/child should make sure that she wears some underwear that can be used as evidence to give to the police. If nothing else, hide a camera in the child's room. DNA is powerful evidence. So is being caught on tape.

  • serendipity

    Hi whyizit, welcome to the forum!

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