by AK - Jeff 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Please prove, without assertion, without skirting, without stepping around the question this - Please prove that the organization known today as Jehovah's Witnesses, and known in 1919 as the International Bible Students Association, was selected by Christ as the 'Faithful slave class' as they claim, due to having proven themselves to be 'dispensing food at the due time'.
Because the Faithful Discreet Slave says they are.
Isn't that good enough for any reasoning person?
If you received an answer to your satisfaction , would you return?
If you received an answer to your satisfaction , would you return?
If there was a clear scriptural answer, I bet it would make some think twice, but it's not a scriptural teaching.
ive been over this so many times with my dad, he says the 'well at least we have the truth now' and wheni ask how could they be the choosen ones in 1919 if they got so many things wrong? he just sayd that jehs servants thruout history have been mistaken on certian pionts, ie, the apostles thought jesus was coming then, and also daniel misunderstood stuff that was cleared up later, and i never quite knew how to answer him on that?
but jeff, your point is great that it has always been obvious who jeh approved off so why would he not make it clear if it was the witnesses when it means peoples lives?
If you received an answer to your satisfaction , would you return?
That made me think. The reason I left was due to absolute evidence to the contrary. You know when Moses attempted the first miracle, he failed to show how he was clearly God's representative. The 'magic practicing priests' were able to match him. But he later was able to prove beyond a doubt who was behind him. In the case of the WTBTS - they not only failed to meet the first test - but they are still failing to meet the test of one marked and set apart by God. They are still spewing out empty rhetoric and prophetic utterances that are not only failing, but based on failing and wrong chronology too. Quango - I would just like to see one actually tackle the question. I have posed it on this forum prob 5 times, both to specific apologists and to apologists in general. I have not recieved even one serious reply from a Wt supporter. That tells me they cannot answer this question. They have blindly allowed a blind guide to direct them, they know it. There are no credentials to point to, so the best way to avoid the matter is to avoid the question. If they answered it to my satisfaction, I would be obligated to at least consider the possiblilty of return wouldn't I ? I don't think there is even a fragment of a chance that will happen however. Jeff
Jeff,
I asked a particular Jw to respond to your thread, but he refused. Sorry.
I would also like to see this question addressed. It's hard to imagine that any organization today couldn't make the same claim and have every bit as much (or as it happens, as little) to back it up.
I can imagine a JW responding this way:
<VomitWarning>
Jehovah/Jesus saw that the organization of worshippers in 1919 known as Bible Students were sincerely trying to serve him acceptably. True, they did not have full knowledge, but they had already weeded out such unscriptural teachings as hellfire and the trinity. He credited 'holiness' to this group and accepted them as his own.
The history of the organization has shown that it took this appointment seriously. Truly, as Jesus said, by their fruits you will know them.
Who else is performing the preaching work in a united way on a worldwide scale?
What other organization has upheld the Bible's moral code to the scripturally-sanctioned point of shunning unrepentant wrong doers?
Who else is remaining separate from the world's politics and warfare?
Truly, it is clear that the organization today known as Jehovah's Witnesses has acted and continues to act as Jehovah's representatives on earth.
</VomitWarning>
How would you respond to that?
(I'm gonna go wash my hands now)
Dave
AA - I'll be Devil's advocate to your vomit, for a moment. If the WT was chosen in 1919 because of the "unique" "adherance" to the bible, does that mean there were no other christian sects which had the same beliefs?
I remember the persons' I studied with, their pat'answer was..."It must be the truth (tm) or God would not allow the "work" to procede and do so well", that never really helped me much at the time, and I wonder how they feel now? since the home congo has gotten so much smaller. Good question Jeff.
~ Dorothy
Hey AA, --You must know a lot of JW's, because you're really good at that. That's exactly what a JW would say --Positively nauseous. This is too good, I can't resist......
Jeff's challenge was to "prove without asserting" and by this I presume he means to prove without making blind, or unsubstantiated assertions. As you show with your parody, JW's don't do this...
Assertion #1
Jehovah/Jesus saw that the organization of worshippers in 1919 known as Bible Students were sincerely trying to serve him acceptably.
A JW can claim that the Bible Students were "sincere" all he or she wants. Whether Jehovah/Jesus agree with that claim and even if they do, whether they valued this sincerity over and above whatever any other group may have had is another matter ---one that no human can objectively know short of a Divine revelation
Assertion #2
He credited 'holiness' to this group and accepted them as his own.
Another claim to know the mind of God. Taken together these two assertions amount to an a priori assumption of the correctness of that which was in question in the first place. --In other words, a circular argument.
Assertion #3
The history of the organization has shown that it took this appointment seriously. Truly, as Jesus said, by their fruits you will know them.
The history of the organization could just as easily be used to make an opposing case. The JW organization has done some good things, but they've done a fair number of bad things as well. Their stubborness in the face of overwhelming evidence that the transfusion medicine taboo is in error is a good example of the latter. Ignoring the bad when the JW faith is compared to others amounts to a double standard --and more circularity in the argument.
Non-sequitors 1, 2 & 3
Who else is performing the preaching work in a united way on a worldwide scale? What other organization has upheld the Bible's moral code to the scripturally-sanctioned point of shunning unrepentant wrong doers? Who else is remaining separate from the world's politics and warfare?
Even if we ignore the fact that the JW's are not completely unique here, the positions the JW organization has adopted in the years following 1919 is neither here nor there as far as the original question is concerned.
Assertion #4
Truly, it is clear that the organization today known as Jehovah's Witnesses has acted and continues to act as Jehovah's representatives on earth.
This is simply begging the question since this is exactly what is in contention in the first place. The only thing that could make such an appointment clear is objective evidence, yet the only thing a JW can bring to the table is subjective evidence.
That was cathartic --- Thank you AA.
If the WT was chosen in 1919 because of the "unique" "adherance" to the bible, does that mean there were no other christian sects which had the same beliefs?
There were others at the time that had also recognized some unscriptural aspects to the organized religions of their day, but no others were fully embracing the light as it got brighter in revelations of truth from Jehovah. He saw in this group of Bible Students a unique sincerity and love of truth. He was able to see that in the future, this organization would continue to uphold the truth, study his word, and follow that word wherever it led.
For instance, it was not known in 1919 that Christmas was offensive to God. When this was pointed out to most other religions, they scoffed at it. Only Jehovah's Witnesses boldly took a stand, tossing off the old pagan practices.
When it was determined that smoking was both a "defilement of flesh" and a spiritistic practice, Jehovah's Christian people put down their tobacco products, never to return to them.
Jehovah knew back in 1919 which organization would continue toward truth. And history proves that this organization lived up to that promise.
Dave
