should we pray to jesus?

by Cordelia 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Cordelia

    thanks i will look them up properly now, im alittle nervous about tomorrow, another thing he gave me was about bdays we all know why jws dont celebrate them but i asked about anniversrys etc, basically he said it boiled down to the fact that bdays are mentioned in a bad light so witnesses are right staying away from them as the early christians did not celebrate bdays (apparently secular history supports this) and yet they did celebrate weddings and anniversaries!

    i will have fun tomorrow!

    ross thanks for being so sweet for me

  • Narkissos

    Just to put things into perspective, remember that in any case prayer to Jesus is the exception, not the rule, both within the NT and in mainstream church practice.

    This being said, in John 14:14 the NWT does not follow its alleged textual basis (i.e. Westcott & Hort) as is plain from the KIT (The Kingdom Interlinear Version of the Christian Greek Scriptures): the "literal" rendering of the Greek is "If ever anything you should ask me in the name of me this I shall do," and the NWT simply suppresses the "me": "If you ask anything in my name I will do it." This is a defendable position on textual grounds (quite a few manuscripts omit the "me") but this is not the Greek text retained by Westcott & Hort (or later textual critics such as Nestle & Aland).

  • ozziepost
    Just to put things into perspective, remember that in any case prayer to Jesus is the exception, not the rule, both within the NT and in mainstream church practice.

    From what i've seen (and heard!) they're used interchangeably.

  • Narkissos


    Really? From what I have seen and heard (perhaps not in the same churches!) I am still under the impression that the overwhelmingly majoritary liturgical pattern is "praying to the Father in the name of Jesus".

    Although, giving it a second thought, addressing Jesus might be more common in songs (from Bach's cantatas to the "spirituals" and "Gospel" types) than in plain speech.

    I guess there must have been some surveys about that...

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    Not that I am any sort of authority on this issue - I struggle with it myself since leaving the organization. But it seems that all the translations I have looked at agree in basic with the NWT - and believe me I am no defender of the NWT - but facts is facts;

    If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. KJV
    If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. NKJV
    If ye shall ask anything in my name, that will I do. Standard Version
    if ye ask anything in my name I will do [it]. Young
    If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. Webster
    If you will ask anything in my name, that will I do. World English

    There is no evidence though in this text as to whom the request should be made - only that it should be made in the name of Jesus.

    The three exceptions in my current library are these, in which Jesus does seem to say that requests to him, in his name would be done.

    If you make any request of me in my name, I will do it. Weymouth NT

    If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do. Douay Riehms
    If you make any request to me in my name, I will do it. Basic English

    I have to agree that the request should be in Jesus name - but I find no support for the idea that Jesus indicates to whom the prayer must be directed. It does seem clear from this text though that it would be Jesus who answered the prayers. It would seem logical that if he would answer prayers, he would hear them too. Just my opinion.

    [edited to reflect Narko's correct notation]

  • Narkissos


    Read again Douay-Rheims and Basic English...

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    Narkissos -

    I stand corrected! I read them all over and missed those two!



  • Narkissos

    As far as English Bibles are concerned, I have only the NRSV and NIV at hand: both of them include the "me". Most recent French translations do.

    I will quote Metzger (A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament): "Either the unusual collocation, "ask me in my name" (yet it is not without parallel, cf. Ps 25.11; 31.3; 79.9, where the Psalmist prays to God for his name's sake), or a desire to avoid contradiction with 16.23, seems to have prompted (a) the omission of me in a variety of witnesses (...) or (b) its replacement with ton patera [the Father]... The word me is adequately supported (...) and seems to be appropriate in view of its correlation with egĂ´ [I] later in the verse."

    I skipped the manuscript references but the me is in the older ones (P66, Sinaiticus, Vaticanus etc.). As usual in textual criticism, the question is: what best accounts for the difference? The position of most modern scholars is that it is best explained as an omission than as an addition.

    (Btw, the me is absent from the so-called "majority" = Byzantine tradition, which explains why older English Bibles do not have it.)

  • Cordelia
    peaceful pete the scriptures in acts 8 say suplicate jehovah in the nw translation, tho the footnote for the greek word is tou ky ri ou, the nw translation feels that when that greek word is used it could mean either jeh or jesus so they check the hebrew scrips and go with the context, any one know wht that greek word really means?

    my dad has studied ancient greek and on what woodsman said, about obeisence and worship, he showed me the same greek word used with jesus when abraham was 'worshipped' and it is the same greek word, ill look up what im on about when i have more time, but i kind of want to prove that the jws do not have the truth as i am doing a massive thing today and hurting my family alot, so any 'proof' would be much appreciated!

  • LittleToe

    The "me" debate is the icing on the cake, but I intentionally didn't mention it so as to simplify the argument.

    Even in the NWT it seems pretty evident that he's offering to be asked to do stuff. Otherwise why would it be himself who would respond by doing it? It just doesn't make much sense to start interjecting the Father in there when it appears that Jesus is making a case for being able to do all that the Father would.

    Whilst I often hear Jesus being prayed to, and engage in the practice myself, I would agree with Didier that the majority of prayers are to the Father. Proportionally that would have scriptural warrant, but then you can make statistics say anything, huh? Hehe.

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