Birthday celebrations and customs - Are they for Christians?

by AlmostAtheist 173 Replies latest jw friends

  • sweetscholar
    sweetscholar

    although JWs are not Calvinists (thank God) there is some truth to what Calvin said about "total depravity" of the will and nature of man. it's not quite as John Calvin (a hypocrite and weirdo by the way) insisted. but the Bible does say that "in me, that is in my flesh, there dwells nothing good" and "the heart of man (emotions, propencities, leanings and all) is bad from his youth up" and "the heart (emotions and all) is treacherous and DESPERATELY WICKED, who can know it, (or who can trust it)" and "through one man sin entered the world and death through sin" and "I was shapen in iniquity" and "in sin did my mother conceive me" and "who produces someone clean out of someone unclean? there is not one." etc. and also "dead in trespasses and sins" and "vanity vanity all is vanity" referring to what emotional materialistic ritualistic human beings do and "conjure up". etc. Calvin just went overboard thinking that because of that free will is totally gone. there are Verses that indicate that though we're in bondage to sin, we can still make some choices. "life and death" "blessing and cursings" are choices that God puts before us. but anyway, as far as emotions though. no God created us with emotions. and before Adam fell into sin and rebellion (after Eve started the apostasy of the human race, and then seduced her silly husband with her) Adam's emotions were balanced and "good." but sin and Satan have taken that and corrupted and perverted human emotions, where logic, reason, and Truth, get shoved aside many times. "because of your TRADITION" Christ said.

    now back to my friend AlmostAtheist (who should be AlmostBackToBeingJW I hope, cuz I'm sure he's sorely missed in the Congregation) as I said, birthday celebrations are DIFFERENT than excessive eye makeup and whatever, and I think you're shrewd and honest enough to see that. eye makeup in that sense (though it's debatable whether it's so "self-worship"ish) is not this elaborate CEREMONIAL party thing, or this big production with balloons and whistles and cakes and pagan candles and pagan wishes to pagan Druid gods. so if I sounded a tad "dismissive" about it, I almost this clears up why. cuz they just aint the same. I know you're point about "well pagans did, and it's narratively mentioned, and bad things happened" but that's why I said so what cuz what about Jezebel's hair being made up too in that very Verse? you didn't address that point I made.

    birthday celebrations, generally speaking, and the way it's been, and you know this, is this big retarded "Happy Birthday To YOU" singing, trappings, baggage, paganism, elaborate creature-worshipish nonsense involved. where is there singing "happy eye paint to me, happy eye makeup on me"??? that's what I meant. so yes, I did and I am further addressing it. don't get me wrong. I find it cute in a way that you keep harping on the eye paint. I find your postings interesting, thought-provoking, and adorable. that's why I'm sad that you're in this state. I understand it. doubts and issues and important things come up. but again, I'm sure you're missed by many. don't close the door on JWs and the "Church of Jehovah's Messiah and Kingdom" completely. and as far as the over-scrupulosity at times, one thing is it's generally better to 'err' on the side of safety than not. I'll just say this last thing again on oral sex in marriage. as I said, at one time the WT was stronger against it, but toned down considerably. cuz they know that policing marriage bedrooms is stupid and un-Biblical. so you don't see five lines about it in decades, in any literature. cuz in marriage, as long as both agree, it's like who cares. there are more pressing issues than a wife giving her husband mouth and tongue pleasure and therapy in different parts of the body. God didn't care about that in Leviticus, but rather encouraged in Solomon's Canticles. so the WT (even if individual fartish elders in Bethel or in local congos go woof woof matic about it. DOGmatic) is toned down about that stuff. trifles.

    and in a way, birthday parties, compared to murder, lying, defrauding, smiting, fornication, homosexuality, smoking, is trifle too. but also, not necessarily a wise pure Christian or Biblical move either. none of Jehovah's servants, from Genesis to Revelation ever celebrated their birthdays, only retarded pagan creeps, and history testifies that the trappings and customs involved in it today are BIG no no's for Christians. (Druid candles offered as sacred smoke to their deities, making a wish to a sacred Druid demon god, as well as the self-magnifying aspects of it, and just general wordly overtones of it all) also I want to mention that you didn't say anything about my point to you where you said "the culture of the Jews, but how do we know it was their religion that forbade or discouraged it," or something like that you said.

    and I wrote in a post after that, saying that "the culture of the Jews was interchangeable with their religion, that was the point." in other words, what needs to be understood is that their religion was their culture, and their culture was their religion. I would think that you would know that. look at the whole origin of the Jewish people, from the word go (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Joseph, the 12 Tribes, Moses, the Law (Torah), the kings, the prophets, and Jehovah was their national God.) you might be referring to that time in history with people in general, but that's not true either because "people at that time in history in general culture wise" celebrated their birthdays, as we plainly see. from Pharaoh the pagan Egyptian to Herod the pagan Edomite, and flunky of Rome. but the point again is that the Jewish religion was the same as the Jewish culture, back then. there was no difference. so of course the Jewish religion discouraged (because of key points and principles in the Jewish Scriptures) vain things like birthday parties and whatnot. but my point is that individual disobedient Jews (which is why John the Baptist called for repentance) may have done things like that. but Christ and His Jewish Apostles never did, though wedding parties are recorded. let's not beat a dead horse now. if the Bible and Christ's Faithful Slave (though not infallible) discourages it and put it in an unfavorable light, in at least 4 types of ways, then so will Bible-following separated sanctified JWs. "oral sex in marriage" hang-ups, again, have been toned down by the WT and not bothered with. that's a private thing. whereas elaborate "birthday parties" are an open flaunting showy type thing. another difference. and yes eye paint is kind of "showy" in a sense too, but it's more an adornment dressy type thing, rather than a pagan form of self-worship and self-honoring ceremonial stuff. with pagan witches rites, and candles offering incense to Celtic gods, and Druid mysticism thrown in the mix. take care.

  • sweetscholar
    sweetscholar

    we must have been writing at the same time. cuz you mentioned the hair thing briefly, as I was writing my posting. no it goes beyond "they're the faithful slave and God's mouthpiece on earth, like the Apostles, and that's that." you know me better than that by now. I say that that's a PART of it, but not all of it. the Bible and objective History are the main things. also the thing on alcohol consumption at the party was not a big point because JWs and the Bible do not condemn wine drinking per se, but excess with wine. the overall point is that it was BIRTHDAY party, not necessarily incidental drinking. cuz alcohol consumption went on at the wedding in Cana. so what? why would I get into the alcohol thing, when the overall question was birthday parties? why dancing? when the Bible does NOT condemn dancing, but shows Miriam and other Israelites with tibrels, dancing in celebration to Jehovah. (Exodus 15:20). so why would I mention that? the Bible does not condemn but recommends dancing and even moderate drinking. but does NOT recommend at all birthday celebrations. in some elaborate party or ceremony.

    and your point about being doubtful about blowing out candles with birthday parties in the Bible, well how do you know exactly that it didn't in some form? (that stuff originated from ancient Greece, which pre-ceded Herod) especially since all pagan nonsense ultimately originates from ancient Babylon in various forms? those Druid rituals got further origins from pagan Babylon and pagan Egypt. if pagans were doing it (Pharaoh and Herod) then you can bet dollars to donuts that pagan or questionable customs were involved. but I agree that that's not the ONLY problem with birthday parties. cuz even if someone wanted to have a birthday party with no cake or candles, then what? it's still not recommended because of the self-glorifying nature of it in general. the cake and candles, as I said in another posting, only add "icing" (pun again) to the overall problem and questionable nature of it. and you really doubt that formal "gift-giving" went on with Pharaoh and Herod? along with "honor and glorify and adulate this person on his birthday" notions and emotions? and you just said not really in honor or pagan gods but in "honor of the birthday boys". well who said that they weren't ultimately? in fact that was my MAIN point "in honor of the birthday boys" self-glorifying creature worship type nonsense. the pagan Druid demon gods were a side point that didn't exactly help the matter, as far as the nonsense nowadays. a FEW things come into play, not just that Pharaoh and Herod did it. the fact that later on it became more elaborate in the cake, candle, Druid make a wish things, ONLY MAKES IT WORSE !!!! so why chance it, even more so now???

    you and I both know that majority of birthday parties that go on in this country (for both kids and adults alike) involve pagan cakes with pagan candles with pagan wish-making and pagan blowing out. the hard fact is that the various customs today with birthday celebrations are rooted in magic and pagan religion. that's just an ecyclopedic historical fact. Pagan Greeks believed that everyone had a protective guardian DAEMON god who attended his birth and watched over his life. The Romans DID have those same ideas in the first century too !! the custom of lighted candles on cakes started with pagan Greece, so Herod would have known about that already. The candles, according to religious myth, was believed to have special powers and magic, for granting wishes and prayers. (people don't generally want to look at this way, but when you "make a wish" and then blow out candles on a birthday cake, you're in effect, praying to a demon. yikes. sorry but that IS the background and origin of that. how boot dat?) So the birthday candles were to bring good luck and fortune to the birthday boy. partying and eating and drinking (like the wedding in Cana) are not bad in themselves. but birthday celebrations with all their pagan trappings, baggage, and background,--welll that's a different animal altogether.

    remember that thing about the Truth and Word of God beign like thorny "pricks" and "goads" and "nails" and sharp two-edged Sword. (Ecclesiastes 12:11; Acts 26:14; Hebrews 4:12) that can be sooo cutting and hard to take at times. "narrow road" for a reason. so it's not all "FDS" as my friend says, but BOTH the Holy Word of the Holy God and His "FDS" class. "Faithful and Discreet Slave" or "Servant" and "Holy Nation" class. (see Isaiah 43:10; Matthew 24:45; 1 Peter 2:9.)

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist

    Hey SS,

    I read your posts throughly. Not that it isn't fun, but our discussion is sort of all over the place. I listed 5 correlations between birthdays and makeup earlier. That could serve as a structure for further discussion and might help us to stay focused toward winning one or the other of us over.

    Could you please, in as simple terms as you can swing, address this list?

    I contend that birthdays and makeup are equivalent to each other in their basis for condemnation. Here's the things I see as similar between them:

    1. Both birthdays and eye makeup are mentioned only twice in the Bible.
    2. Both are only mentioned in association with wicked unbelievers.
    3. Both are mentioned only in passing and are not actually relevant to what the Bible is actually talking about in those verses.
    4. Both have pagan origins.
    5. Both (by your definition) involve vanity and drawing attention to self.

    Do you disagree with any of the above listed points? If so, please explain your disagreement.

    When you make your point, please note which item (1-5) you are disagreeing with and list your reasoning on it.

    My point to all this, of course, is that if they ARE equivalent in the above 5 ways, what basis is there for condemning one and not the other? (I don't think either are wrong, but I think any supposed rules about mentions in the Bible or pagan roots should be applied to everything that the rule covers.)

    I hope you've seen that I know the JW's version of the scriptures reasonably well. I assure you, you aren't going to reference a "stop touching the unclean thing" verse I've never seen before. And it is irrelevant anyway, since the point of our discussion is to determine if birthday celebrations are in fact one of these "unclean things".

    We may not agree, but in the end we will both be more aware of our positions. That's a good thing, too.

    Dave

  • sweetscholar
    sweetscholar

    hi. I said that while there's some vanity and whatever involved in eye paint, it's the EXCESSIVE use that was more involved, which, as I said a few times already, JWs and the WT frown upon AS WELL. so why bring up a semi-straw argument with excessive eye make up? or are you saying that ANY use of any amount of eye paint would thereby be questionable too, not just "overdoing it". but also, I made the point to you and you kind of admitted it to a degree that birthday celebrations contain MORE than just those "5 points" that you keep listing. in other words, the BD celeb thing has those 5 plus a few other things. like "witches' mysticism" which DID pre-cede King Herod. Ancient Greece had many of the same rituals and customs in their pagan superstitious view of birthday boys and birthday celebrations that are still being done to this day. there's the "guardian daemon" and "mystical powers" aspects. that you DON'T find with "eye makeup." so even if all 5 points that you mention with the eye paint coincided somewhat with 5 points with birthday celebrations, you're forgetting momentarily that with BD celebrations there's at LEAST one or two other points, that eye make up in the Bible or in history do NOT solidly have in that exact sense. even you admitted that it's highly doubtful that Jezebel was thinking of warding off (or warding ON) evil spirits by applying eye paint on herself. also she did her hair up too, so it's like whatever. also, one other thing about concerning the point of "vanity", I addressed that a little. I said that birthday celebrations are way more ELABORATE and ritualistic and MORE "self-glorifying" and "vain" in a very real sense than eye make up or apparel and whatever. but again, excessive overly provokative makeup is not encouraged either. all I'm saying is that BD celebrations have a worse omen and stench about them historically and Biblically than does eye make up. why? because blatant overt pagan rigtuals and superstition and magic and voodoo and witchcraft and demonism are not so overtly tied in with eye paint necessarily. and again, even if someone celebrated his birthday with no cake, candles, wish-making, balloons, or whatever, it's probably not AS bad or questionable, but still questionable in that it's too blatantly self-adulating and creature-venerating, in general. more than eye paint. but again, who said that provokative kooky looking overt over-done eye paint was something the WT winked at (punny) anyway?? take care. (also, I was busy the last couple of days, so sorry for the delay in answering you.)

  • sweetscholar
    sweetscholar
    Dec 11, 2005
    hi. I said that while there's some vanity and whatever involved in eye paint, it's the EXCESSIVE use that was more involved, which, as I said a few times already, JWs and the WT frown upon AS WELL. so why bring up a semi-straw argument with excessive eye make up? or are you saying that ANY use of any amount of eye paint would thereby be questionable too, not just "overdoing it". but also, I made the point to you and you kind of admitted it to a degree that birthday celebrations contain MORE than just those "5 points" that you keep listing. in other words, the BD celeb thing has those 5 plus a few other things. like "witches' mysticism" which DID pre-cede King Herod. Ancient Greece had many of the same rituals and customs in their pagan superstitious view of birthday boys and birthday celebrations that are still being done to this day. there's the "guardian daemon" and "mystical powers" aspects. that you DON'T find with "eye makeup." so even if all 5 points that you mention with the eye paint coincided somewhat with 5 points with birthday celebrations, you're forgetting momentarily that with BD celebrations there's at LEAST one or two other points, that eye make up in the Bible or in history do NOT solidly have in that exact sense. even you admitted that it's highly doubtful that Jezebel was thinking of warding off (or warding ON) evil spirits by applying eye paint on herself. also she did her hair up too, so it's like whatever. also, one other thing about concerning the point of "vanity", I addressed that a little. I said that birthday celebrations are way more ELABORATE and ritualistic and MORE "self-glorifying" and "vain" in a very real sense than eye make up or apparel and whatever. but again, excessive overly provokative makeup is not encouraged either. all I'm saying is that BD celebrations have a worse omen and stench about them historically and Biblically than does eye make up. why? because blatant overt pagan rigtuals and superstition and magic and voodoo and witchcraft and demonism are not so overtly tied in with eye paint necessarily. and again, even if someone celebrated his birthday with no cake, candles, wish-making, balloons, or whatever, it's probably not AS bad or questionable, but still questionable in that it's too blatantly self-adulating and creature-venerating, in general. more than eye paint. but again, who said that provokative kooky looking overt over-done eye paint was something the WT winked at (punny) anyway?? take care. (also, I was busy the last couple of days, so sorry for the delay in answering you.)
  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist


    Hey SS,

    Sorry for the delay, been very busy lately.

    I said that while there's some vanity and whatever involved in eye paint, it's the EXCESSIVE use that was more involved, which, as I said a few times already, JWs and the WT frown upon AS WELL.

    I just reread the two verses I list showing where Jezebel and apostate Israel are described as wearing makeup. (2Kings 9:30 and Jeremiah 4:30) In neither instance is the makeup described as excessive. In fact, in both cases the scriptures record that they were made beautiful by being so adorned. So any attempt to dismiss this makeup issue based on its being excessive would be ‘going beyond what is written’. Do you agree that the Bible does not report these uses of makeup as excessive?

    or are you saying that ANY use of any amount of eye paint would thereby be questionable too, not just "overdoing it".

    *I’m* not saying anything about makeup. I’m just pointing you to the same Bible that you’re using to condemn birthdays, showing that the arguments against birthdays would apply equally well to makeup, and asking why JW’s choose to condemn one and not the other.

    but also, I made the point to you and you kind of admitted it to a degree that birthday celebrations contain MORE than just those "5 points" that you keep listing. in other words, the BD celeb thing has those 5 plus a few other things. like "witches' mysticism" which DID pre-cede King Herod.

    Actually, I see the “witches’ mysticism” as a pagan/magical connection, which I listed as point 4 above. So this isn’t a 6th point, it is another example of the 4th point. Have you researched the origins of eye makeup? It also has a mystical background, having been used originally for the purpose of warding off evil spirits.

    Just for the record, are you saying you agree that the 5 points listed above apply equally well from a scriptural/historical standpoint to both birthdays and makeup? If not, which points do you disagree with?

    Ancient Greece had many of the same rituals and customs in their pagan superstitious view of birthday boys and birthday celebrations that are still being done to this day. there's the "guardian daemon" and "mystical powers" aspects. that you DON'T find with "eye makeup."

    I can agree that there is more of a ceremony to a birthday celebration than there is to the applying and wearing of makeup. I don’t see what significance that has, though. The point isn’t how much evil pagan stuff is involved, but simply that it IS involved, isn’t it? Isn’t that how the Watchtower uses that “eating from the table of demons” scripture? They often use the illustration that if a glass of water had only a drop of poison in it, would you drink it? By that same token, if you feel that birthdays have 7 or 8 drops of poison, but makeup has only 5, why would you drink one and not the other? Why not reject both?

    so even if all 5 points that you mention with the eye paint coincided somewhat with 5 points with birthday celebrations, you're forgetting momentarily that with BD celebrations there's at LEAST one or two other points, that eye make up in the Bible or in history do NOT solidly have in that exact sense.

    You’ve mentioned one, though I still need you to explain why it matters. Are there others? (Please be sure to explain how the new point you bring up is not covered by the above listed 5 points, and why it applies to birthdays but not makeup)

    even you admitted that it's highly doubtful that Jezebel was thinking of warding off (or warding ON) evil spirits by applying eye paint on herself.

    Exactly! And people today celebrating birthdays have no thought whatsoever of participating in pagan rites. Nor are they doing so. This is another point where you can’t have it both ways. Either makeup AND birthdays are ok despite their pagan origins, or they aren’t. Given what we’ve discussed so far, I don't see a basis for separating them.

    I said that birthday celebrations are way more ELABORATE and ritualistic and MORE "self-glorifying" and "vain" in a very real sense than eye make up or apparel and whatever.

    Before I can accept anything connected to the word “vain”, I’m going to have to have you tell me what you mean when you use the word. I don’t care what the dictionary says on it, I need to know what YOU mean when you say it. From the context, I have to assume it's something bad. Please explain your basis for condemning vain things, but only after you've defined the word.

    Thanks for hanging in there with this!

    Dave

  • forsharry
    forsharry

    so I guess buying my best friend that vibrator she was looking at for her birthday is right out then?

    Forsharry of the "Thanks for ruining my paganistic, self-worshipping, immoral Idea" Class

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    so I guess buying my best friend that vibrator she was looking at for her birthday is right out then?

    Promoting birthdays AND masturbation... nice! If you can work some tobacco in there somewhere, you'd have a Watchtower hat trick!

    Dave

  • forsharry
    forsharry

    OoooOOOoooo...good idea AA...now I just need to find a vibrating cigar...

  • defd
    defd

    I think forsharry needs a man or some alone time with...............

    D.

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