Leaving JWs Has Made Me Intolerant of Stupid Thinking - How About U?

by Seeker4 57 Replies latest jw friends

  • Seeker4
    Seeker4

    Meant to write a bit more than that.

    Hey exist...: 'What spelling and grammar' have to do with thinking the poster is educated and intelligent - well, one indicates the other. Hope you figure out that html format soon. Try this. Click on the subject, then hit edit. Then fix your work. I have to do that all the time. Come on, take some responsibility for what you write. Sloppy writing = sloppy thinking. Welcome to the world of an editor.

    Shoddy writing doesn't mean I can't quote it. Not at all. Maybe just the opposite. That I should quote it.

    As far as the use of the term theory in regard to scientific thinking, try a better source for your definition.

    rmt1 - He's got a way bigger problem than just with his space bar.

    S4

  • CinemaBlend
    CinemaBlend

    Wow, man I can so relate to this too. I'd never thought about WHY but your theory about having to be quiet so long while people said stupid, and wrong things is a damned good one.

  • existentialist
    existentialist

    That's funny, since your grammar isn't anything to applaud either("Meant to write a bit more than that" requires an "I" in the beginning of the sentence).
    One doesn't indiciate the other, otherwise a person who's excellent in grammar or spelling can never be "unintelligent" or incorrect about anything (how's THAT for "logic"?). Come on, take some responsibility for what you postulate.Sloppy "logic" = sloppy arguments. Welcome to the world of a logician.
    Actually you shouldn't quote anything. Especially if the pot calls the kettle black.
    Give me a better source for my defintions.
    You're right.I don't have problem than my space bar,it's the space between certain people's ears.
    You still haven't answered any of my questions about theology,but never mind, you have it all figured out. Keep smacking those people who don't agree with you.Who needs intelligent debate,right? Meant to write a bit more than that. Hey exist...: 'What spelling and grammar' have to do with thinking the poster is educated and intelligent - well, one indicates the other. Hope you figure out that html format soon. Try this. Click on the subject, then hit edit. Then fix your work. I have to do that all the time. Come on, take some responsibility for what you write. Sloppy writing = sloppy thinking. Welcome to the world of an editor. Shoddy writing doesn't mean I can't quote it. Not at all. Maybe just the opposite. That I should quote it. As far as the use of the term theory in regard to scientific thinking, try a better source for your definition. rmt1 - He's got a way bigger problem than just with his space bar. S4

  • seattleniceguy
    seattleniceguy

    Now, now, guys. This is an interesting discussion. Let's not get sidetracked with name-calling.

    existentialist,
    >> Theory:n. Abstract reasoning; speculation:ex.a decision based on experience rather than theory.
    This is indeed the way the word is used in the vernacular. However, it has a very different, quite specific meaning in science. In science, the word "theory" definitely does not mean a mere hunch or guess. Actually, it indicates the highest degree of confidence possible in an explanation that makes accurate predictions and explains all the available evidence, and has survived considerable experimentation. The word "theory" in "Theory of Evolution" should considered in the same sense as in the phrases electrical theory, gravitational theory, and so on.
    Here's a good explanation of what is meant by "evolutionary theory":
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
    Cheers,
    SNG

  • existentialist
    existentialist

    It WAS an intersting discussion, but since he has all the answers, its rather a moot discussion. He hasn't answered any of my questions,but he'd rather arbitrarily decide what is "good" and "bad," "right" or "wrong." I was just debating, but am now ignoring any of his replies,since he's "won" (groooan)
    Seattle... I understand, but even in science,not all "explanations that make accurate predictions and explain all the available evidence",can be experimented on. That was my point in the beginning.Some can and some can't. For example, no one can perfectly prove the Big Bang theory since it's impossinble to do so,otherwise, we would have to go back to the very beginnning of the universe in order to observe the phenomena itself and provide the data in question.Unless we have time travel, it simply cannot be done. I was mentioning the fact that some things can be viewed as "infallible" like Newton's Laws of Motion, and some can't ever be proven, that's all.
    As far as evolution, even in your article is says:Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.Well,which one is it? A "fact" or a theory? Evolution is a fact, but the mechanics of it are theory?,hhhmmmmmm.....
    Call me a fool,but I am anti-evolutionist.Empiricism is suposedly the "key" to science,yet it still imposes speculation, and mixes it in, in some instances. For example, it can't explain what actually came BEFORE the Big Bang.I feel it ahould be either speculation OR "fact," seoerately not both, mixed together. Think about it:the plants came before botany. Humans have a tendency to apply abstract constructs to what is simply in front of them. Yet, at the end of the day, they're still just plants.

  • seattleniceguy
    seattleniceguy

    existentialist,
    Thanks for your reply.
    >> in science,not all "explanations that make accurate predictions and explain all the available evidence",can be experimented on. That was my point in the beginning.Some can and some can't. For example, no one can perfectly prove the Big Bang theory since it's impossinble to do so,otherwise, we would have to go back to the very beginnning of the universe in order to observe the phenomena itself and provide the data in question.
    It is true that it is impossible to re-observe events that happened only one time. However, in this case, there is still mountainous evidence that can lead us strongly toward certain conclusions.
    The situation is similar to collecting forensic evidence after a murder. It is true that we cannot actually observe the murder happen, although admittedly this would be the most sure way of getting the facts. However, surely you would agree that evidence such as fingerprints, DNA samples, weapons, witness accounts, and so on can converge to give a clear and convincing picture of what happened. Sometimes the picture leaves room for doubts, but sometimes it points to an inescapable conclusion.
    The Big Bang was a one-time event that scattered evidence everywhere. I won't go into that evidence here, but in this sense it is like the forensics example I gave above.
    Evolution, on the other hand, has a different quality. It is true that the evolution of life to the current state is something that happened in the past, but evolution is an ongoing process, and it is possible for us to directly observe it happen. Creatures with extremely short generation cycles, such as bacteria, are prime candidates for this, and such evolution can directly be observed. (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html#observe)
    Evolution also has some of the "one-time event" quality, inasmuch as any given evolutionary branching event occurred only one time. However, because our planet is so superabundantly covered in life, we are literally drowning in biological data, and upon observation, it all points to evolution. Some of the strongest evidence for common descent comes from DNA analysis, which is as close to a smoking gun as we could hope for. Here are a couple articles I wrote on this topic:
    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/86797/1.ashx
    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/87238/1.ashx
    An important aspect of a scientific theory is that if even one piece of data can be found to contradict the predictions of the theory, the theory must be changed or discarded. After 150 years of intensive investigation, evolutionary theory has undergone some fine-tuning, but probably none that would be apparent to the layperson. It is incredibly successful at describing what we actually see around us.
    >> establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.Well,which one is it? A "fact" or a theory? Evolution is a fact, but the mechanics of it are theory?,hhhmmmmmm.....
    This is a critical point. The facts overwhelmingly support the idea that biological change occurs over time. This is what is referred to as the fact of evolution. The theory part is, yes, but how, and why? Even before Darwin proposed Natural Selection, scientists were coming to grips with the idea that life changes over time. Others put forward theories to account for how this occurred, but they were unsuccessful (see Lamarckianism in Wikipedia for more). Natural Selection is the primary mechanism by which evolution is thought to occur. This is the "theory" part.
    It is possible to test this theory, for example, by creating two identical populations of bacteria (offspring from the same colony), and putting them in different environments and seeing whether genetic divergence occurs, and whether it occurs in concordance with the predictions of Natural Selection. In fact, divergence - actual genetic change - does occur as individuals compete for available resources and the "fitter" are selected.
    >> For example, it can't explain what actually came BEFORE the Big Bang. I feel it ahould be either speculation OR "fact," seoerately not both, mixed together.
    Science cannot explain what happened before the Big Bang because science relies on observation, and it is not possible to observe - either directly or via evidence - what happened before the birth of the universe. Actually, I see this as a strong point. There are some questions that science cannot answer, and science does not pretend that it can. A similar question is, how did life begin? The available data is quite scanty, so the best we can do is make educated guesses. (Incidentally, the question of life began is *completely* separate from evolution. Evolution explains how existing life changes across generations.)
    Cheers,
    SNG

  • Seeker4
    Seeker4

    Thanks, Seattle Nice Guy for, well, being a nice guy and dealing with the anti-evolution nonsense again. I didn't mean to get into a pissing match with existentialist, but I'd read a few of his posts and knew something was up.
    So I wasn't a bit surprised when his silliness surfaced.
    Think it was the second glass of wine that made me get a little grumpy there! I apologize to all.
    Thanks for responding to it - after so many, many discussion on this board about the proof for evolution , I'm just too tired of going over the same things again and again. How many times do these guys have to get ripped to shreds before they catch on?
    Anyway, thanks for your reasonableness and patience.
    /br> S4

  • existentialist
    existentialist

    http://www.biblicaldefense.org/Research_Center/Apologetics/Scientific_Apologetics/scientific_case_against_evolution.htm
    Sillines, indeed...
    Not trying to convince anybody,as there's plenty of that going in here,but it's merely something to think about.You may want to weigh both decisions before latching on to a belief.Give some room for error, or at least incompleteness...

  • Seeker4
    Seeker4

    Existentialist,

    When I first left the Witnesses, I didn't want to believe in evolution, and I wanted to continue to believe in a God with a purpose for this earth and humanity.

    At that time I made a long and detailed examination of evolution, as you just encouraged me to do. I went to the creationist sites, went to the sites that focused on the weaknesses in evolution theory, which is essentially what the WTS does. I went to where ever the topic was openly debated. I wanted to get both sides of the issue.

    The evidence for evolution is simply overwhelming, the anti-evolutionists and intelligence design proponents just can't defend their positions in intelligent, scientific debate. The evidence changed my mind, and I became an evolutionist and atheist.

    Of course there's room for incompleteness - evolution is a theory that's being added to daily, as is atomic theory, computer theory, all branches of science, so in that sense they are incomplete. That doesn't make gravity or atomic energy or evolution any less a fact, simply because we don't have an absolutely complete understanding fo them.

    SNG gave a well reasoned explanation to you in his posts above. Take some time with them. I think the link you had in your last post says it all - www.biblical defense.org. People are opposed to evolution because they want to believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. Because there is no science to back them up, they have to attack the weaknesses in the evidence for evolution. That does nothing to alter the fact of evolution, and it's an extremely poor way of carrying on the debate. If there is evidence for creation, lts see the science. Publish it in scientific journals, let it be peer reviewed.

    That doesn't happen at all, and it's mainly because there is no such evidence and science.

    Also, I apologize for any name-calling or insults last evening. That was unnecessary and out of place on my part.

    S4

  • seattleniceguy
    seattleniceguy

    existentialist,
    >> You may want to weigh both decisions before latching on to a belief.
    You make quite an assumption about me. Remember that I used to be a Witness. I was heart-and-soul bent on proving that evolution was wrong. I've considered plenty of pro-creation literature from both Witnesses and non-Witnesses. The fact of the matter is that the evidence for evolution is simply overwhelming. I would go so far as to say that, if you're anything like I was, you probably cannot even begin to imagine how much evidence there is. I can guarantee that if you dig into it, your jaw will drop many, many times.
    A good place to start is the FAQ of TalkOrigins: http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html
    Cheers,
    SNG

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