||it's a question and point that I've come across before a number of times already. it's not a new point or discovery. and if you're asking me this in at least a semi-sincere way, and in an honest manner, then I welcome the question. civil discussion about it is fine and even necessary. but are you just gonna be closed-minded and dismissive with everything I write and say here? hopefully not. if you can humbly keep your mind open just a crack, it might suit you well. I don't say that condescendingly either, but honestly. we all could and should take that advice, in general. I say that a case CAN be made for a co-equal trinity, in Scripture. Just not an air-tight or totally bullet-proof case. I concede some seeming points here and there. but where's the weight of evidence? The Bible was written in such a way so as to test men's hearts. let's discuss this matter now. here we go. let me first say this: a text without a context is a pre-text. (just like trinitarians have lifted "I and My Father are one" out its proper and understandable and reasonable context in John 10 concerning one in pastoral or shepherding work, being "one" with the Father in holy mission and saving purpose, and NOT in some mystical Nicean "substance" thing, of Athanasian hallucinations.) |
now, what was the overall situation and context and point in Isaiah? People of an Athanasian or Trinitarian bent have constantly used Isaiah 44:24 to TRY to prove that Jesus is the Supreme Creator, just like His Father is, or that they must be co-equal or con-substantial or co-eternal, or the same God, because Scripture states that God made all things by Himself. So the pre-existent Christ must have been "God" exactly and equally like God the Father is. That therefore Jesus would have to be part of the Godhead since Paul and John said that all things were created through Jesus Christ. (John 1:3,10; Colossians 1:16) RUSaved, as I said before, regarding this, because, frankly, you guys always do it, DO NOT TAKE PASSAGES OF SCRIPTURE OUT OF THEIR PROPER AND NECESSARY CONTEXT. What was the context of Isaiah 44:24 ??? What was the setting?? What do the surrounding Verses indicate? RUSaved, stop using closed-system logic. Let's examine things openly and honestly and fairly. Let's take it from the NIV. (Read this through)
"This is what the LORD says--your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself, who foils the signs of the FALSE PROPHETS and makes fools of DIVINERS, who overthrows the learning of the wise and turns it into nonsense, who carries out the words of his servants and fulfills the predictions of his messengers, who says of Jerusalem, 'It shall be inhabited,' of the towns of Judah, 'They shall be built,' and of their ruins, 'I will restore them,' who says to the watery deep, 'Be dry and I will dry up your streams,' who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please; he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt," and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid."'"--Isaiah 44:24-28.
Jehovah is the Creator of heaven and earth. He is powerful enough to take action against Babylon, and in favor of His forgiven people. (With me so far?) We see that Yehowah Elohim feels absolutely certain about future events and He brings the test to a climax and puts Himself to the severest test of whether He is the one true God compared with gods of the pagan nations. (A very crucial and important point there.) He names, almost 200 years in advance, the very man whom He will raise up to free His people from Babylon.
The fortunetellers, the diviners, the astrologers, the political forecasters who made unfavorable predictions against Yehowah's people, particularly the forecasters of Babylon--all of these Jehovah has proved to be "frustrated fools", having things backwards. At the same time He has proved His own servants, His messengers, His witnesses like Isaiah and Jeremiah, to be true by fulfilling the inspired counsel that He gave through these prophets.
So, sir, when it says that God stretched out the heavens and earth by Himself, it's in the context of refuting pagan gods and idols, that the false gods of the nations (hostile nations) had nothing to do with the creation of the universe. It's exposing false ideas and concepts of the worldly nations. It's the idiomitic Hebraic expressions, and in context, that need to be understood. But this does not ipso fact of necessity mean that a true one, a mighty Firstborn Son of God, can't be a Master Worker and Craftsman at the Father's side while "the foundations of the earth were being marked out." (Read Proverbs 8:22-36; John 3:36; 1 Cor. 1:24.) Trinitarians ALWAYS take Isaiah 44:24 out of its historical, linguistical, religious, Biblical, grammatical, and logical context. To attempt to support an extreme doctrine.
And also, you never really addressed Revelation 3:14, with the Greek "arkhie" meaning "beginning" (NOT beginnER) of God's creation. a Greek term which does NOT mean "ruler" or "source". "arkHON" means "ruler" OF something in the Greek "New Testament", and "arkHEGOS" means "Source" or "Author" OF something in the Greek Scriptures. every single time that the word "arkhie" is used by all writers of the inspired New Testament, where "OF" is next to it, in a genetive sense, it always always means "BEGINNING" or "first in a group" of something. how boot dat?
And now back to the ultimate creation question. it's this simple. God the Father is the Ultimate Source of creation. He "CREATED" (one Hebrew word), and Christ the Master Worker "MADE" all things, a different Hebrew and Greek work. The Father Jehovah can be spoken as both creating and making, but the Son Jesus only "made". Why? because the Father supplied the materials, and the Son worked the materials, at the bidding and in the service of God. Thence, "all things were made through Him, and not one thing that was made was made without Him" and so on. But to TRUE pure unadulterated NON-Athanasian "Christians" of the Bible, there is ONE GOD, the Father, OUT OF (EX) whom all things are,... and one Lord Jesus Christ, THROUGH (DIA) whom all things are." Paul did not say: "to us there is one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit". Why? that would have been a perfect place for him to say and define and make clear who the True God of Christianity is, IF that God is really a co-equal co-eternal trinity. Paul didn't write: "to us there is one God, the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." He didn't phrase it like that. read it carefully. he put only the Father in the "one God" classification. we can get into at another time how Christ is "Lord" in a way (Messianically) that is different than how the Father is "Lord". And that the Father is "God" in a way different (in a Supreme Absolute sense) than how Christ is. And Paul also did not say "to us there is one God, the Father and Christ Jesus OUT OF whom all things are." In other words "ex" is never used of the Son. Even though "dia" as well as "ex" is used of the Father, the crucial point is that the Greek "ex" (for "from" or "out of") is never ever ever used of Christ in the inspired "New Testament." why is that? if Christ is just as much the Creator as the Father is? the answer is that Christ is NOT the ultimate Creator of the universe, but rather its "Maker". Because God the Father both "creates" and "makes" but the Son only "makes" in the sense of working materials that were already there provided by God the Father, the Eternal Unbegotten Supreme God, "whose Name alone is Jehovah." Amen. anymore questions? I hope this helps answer some of these things. And I hope you give at least a smidgen of consideration and fair attention to the points and positions here.