I was thinking today about the issue of Jesus' deity (or lack thereof), according to the WTS. They say that Jehovah is God, Jesus is not the same as Jehovah, but that Jesus is a god. Doesn't that make JWs polytheists? Are there any other official gods to JWs?
Well their take is that Jesus is not to be worshipped just Jehovah. So in the sense of worshipping many gods no they are not polytheists. But some define it in terms of the mere belief in many gods in which case all Christians would be polytheists since the bible speaks of MANY gods and many lords. So if a Christian bases his or her belief on the bible and the bible indicates there is a plurality of deities then all Christians that believe the bible are polytheists. If you go as far as it having to be worship though then I would make the case that neither JWs nor Christians are polytheistic.
The worship of or belief in more than one god. (dictionary.com)
belief in or worship of more than one god (m-w.com)
They say that Jehovah is God, Jesus is not the same as Jehovah, but that Jesus is a god. Doesn't that make JWs polytheists?
You better believe it does.
Technically, it would make them henotheists, since they adamantly refuse to worship Jesus.
The 12 members of the Governing Body are also virtually worshipped
The Jehovah's Witness people told me that Jesus is the "Mighty" god, Jehovah is the "Almighty" god, and Satan is the god of this world. It occurred to me . . . there is no other world (for me).
I went home and I read the book called The Bible and I couldn't find one place where Satan killed anyone, but Jehovah was a mass murderer. The Jehovah's Witness people told me with a smile that Jesus will be (committing the crime of genocide by mass) murdering babies and toddlers of non-Witness people at Armageddon.
It all gives me that warm and fuzzy feeling like I really want to be around these Jehovah's Witness people.
in which case all Christians would be polytheists since the bible speaks of MANY gods and many lords
I'm wondering what you mean by that. I don't recall every reading about other gods in the bible. I know there is mention of false gods, such as baal, but traditional christianity recognizes only one god.
Gary: It's interesting that JW's refer to Satan as the god of this world. I wonder how they define the term "god." The traditional definition is that of an all-powerful being. As you point out, Satan doesn't do anything, really, just tempt people.... that's hardly all-powerful.
- "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt...You shall have no other gods besides Me."
What were my choices? I thought it was widely accepted that there was only one. Do you think christians know this? Who did jehoobah think would steal his adoring crowd from him? Not one of those golden cows or a snake or something, eh? And he didn't bring me out of Egypt. I've never even been there!
Jesus is "God" over the circumstances. Just like Moses and Elijah and Angels, but only to a much higher degree. JWs are not "polytheists" but hold Scripturally that there is ONE SUPREME ALMIGHTY ABSOLUTE GOD, the Father of Christ. The fact is that nowhere in the New Testament is Christ clearly unambiguously called "THE God" or "HO Theos", but the Father clearly irrefutably is. The original Greek and language words need to be considered. But it needs to be understood that Biblically (and Protestantism generally refuses to see this fact) that there are "gods" in the Bible not necessarily "false", but are in a broad sense. others are called 'gods' (and the Scripture cannot be broken) in the Bible (John 10:34,35), Jewish Kings and Judges, (Psalm 82:6; 82:1; 95:3) Angels (Hebrews 2:7; Psalm 8:5 original Hebrew "Elohim" for angels--gods), and Moses was called GOD Elohim (Exodus 7:1). and exclusive "latriea" only clearly goes to God the Father in the New Testament, never clearly unambiguously to the Son. only the broader "proskyneo" in the New Testament goes properly to both the Father and Son, for "worship" in the broader sense, which in the Old Testament went even to King David right alongside Jehovah !!!! (See 1 Chronicles 29:20; 2 Chronicles 24:17) Christ never clearly receives the high "latreia" in the Greek "New Testament" like His Father does, not even in Revelation. and what about Revelation 5:13? that proves the same exact degree of "worship" in the argument of strict "latriea"??? where do you see the word "worship" or "sacred service" or "serve" or "latriea" in Revelation 5:13???? again, it's called trinitarian EISegesis, reading things INTO texts, that are not actually there. Because "blessing and honor and glory" are properly given to the Father and Son, to God and the Lamb, that means in your minds that "latriea" is also given to the Son????? can we say "grasping at straws"? ayayaya) but to respond to what you said before, I actually know who Jesus Christ really is: THE PRE-EXISTENT ONLY-BEGOTTEN DIVINE FIRST-BEGOTTEN SON OF THE DIVINE LIVING ALMIGHTY TRUE GOD, The Word and Wisdom, and "Angel of the LORD" who led the Israelites in the wilderness, and who has "God's Name within Him," the Highest Messenger and Angel of God "Who Is Like God", through Whom everything was created by the Father, God's Beloved Son and Messiah and Appointed Savior and Prince, who came down as a perfect sinless man, to glorify the Father, and redeem sinners, and to save "all those obeying Him." and without Whom THERE IS NO SALVATION OR HOPE !!!!! no hope out of death or the grave or the Lake of Fire. the Lord Jesus Christ. The ONLY way to Almighty God and to everlasting life and health and peace and happiness. well, that's it in a nutshell, basically. and even if you did actually take the time to read every word in my other email to you (which I tend to doubt you actually did), the point is that people generally believe what they WANT to believe, see what they WANT to see, and ignore what they WANT to ignore, not necessarily what the real hard cold unbiased rude and stubborn facts actually support. I will say this. AN ARGUMENT CAN BE MADE FOR THE DOCTRINE OF A CO-EQUAL TRINITY. Let's face it. The Scriptures show that the Father, Son, and Spirit made the universe (can we get an Amen to that?), and are responsible for salvation, redemption, justification, and sanctification. Nobody really doubts or denies that the Holy Scriptures teach these things. But human nature being what it is, and of course the subtle devices, designs, and contaminations of Satan the Devil thrown in, people tend to go BEYOND what is actually set down, for emotional reasons, traditional reasons, and Adamic silliness, etc. Can you deny that fact in general? The real question is does the Holy Bible (especially the ORIGINAL LANGUAGE TEXTS) really truly unambigously teach and say that the Son is actually literally equal with God the Father in every single thing? And does the Bible show UNAMBIGUOUSLY and clearly that the exclusive term "latriea" is properly and expressly and irrefutably given to the Son as well as to the Father? The HONEST answer is No. Not necessarily what I personally want the Bible to say or not say, but what it actually really honestly genuinely does say and say not. In fact, it would suit me just fine if the Bible taught clearly that Jesus was literaly Almighty God in the same Absolute way that God the Father Jehovah is. It would save me headaches and nonsense. And I admit that that notion, in a way, IS more romantic and emotionally appealing. In other words, that it was not just God's Firstborn that came down to die for us, but actually God Almighty Himself that came down to die for us and save fallen man. Yes, that idea has an emotional appeal that I would not mind for myself. But I have to be intellectualy honest and unbiased and accurate and true to things. The Council of Nicea was a godless mess, presided and decided by a corrupt pagan emperor, and heretics and neo-Platonists, and Scripture-distorters. I don't agree with everything that Arius said or taught either. I'm considered more a SEMI-Arian (if you want to use those terms) than an Arian. But whatever. If the Scriptures taught the Athanasian Creed or the Nicene Creed (or at least very close to it) then I'd whole-heartedly follow and believe it. But sadly, the inspired Bible does NOT so clearly state those man-made ideas and credal concepts. It simply doesn't. The Supremacy of God the Father is always upheld and secured in the Bible. The Bible really teaches the absolute sovereignty and supreme Godship of the Heavenly Father alone, EVEN OVER HIS SON !!! (John 14:28; 17:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 11:3; Revelation 3:12-14, etc.) You don't really know me or what I have investigated or researched. I LOOKED INTO ALL ANGLES, ALL SIDES, AND ALL VIEWPOINTS, before deciding. I had given an open mind and a careful and fair consideration to the co-equal trinitarian arguments and apologists and expositers. For real I did. (I have soooo many books and tapes that argue for the trinity and the co-equal deity of Christ. So much material. The Athanasians and their arguments and beliefs and expositions.) And I looked at the Oneness Modalist Sabellian side of the argument, as well the Arian view and Semi-Arian view, and Eusebian view, Unitarian, JW, Russell, etc.) I heard all sides of this tale. This issue that the Devil has so muddied and distorted, it's like not funny. The hard fact, again, is that "latriea" is given to the God (the Father) in the Bible, onlyyyy. And to say so dogmatically and moronically and without real good foundation that in Revelation 22:3 it just HAS to be referring to the Lord Jesus, instead of only to God His Father, is not only annoying, but twisted and sick, when you take into real consideration THAT EVERYWHERE ELSE IN THE HOLY BIBLE, the exclusive "latriea" is unambiguously and only given to the Almighty Father. I already went to the three solid reasons why Revelation 22:3 could NOT be referring to the Son (or the Father and Son) but rather to the Father only. again, just to reiterate quickly. (A) the Father was mentioned right there in the very same sentence, and (B) a singular pronoun was used instead of plural pronoun "them", like could have been as in "and THEIR wrath has come" Rev 6:17 NIV, ESV, NASB , NWT, and (C) EVERY OTHER OCCURENCE IN THE HOLY BIBLE (ESPECIALLY THE "New Testament") WHERE THE GREEK EXCLUSIVE WORD "LATRIEA" OCCURS, IT IS ONLY IN REFERENCE TO GOD THE FATHER, UNAMBIGUOUSLY AND CLEARLY AND IRREFUTABLY !!!!!!!!!!! I hope that YOU really get to know who the real Jesus of Scripture truly is. GOD'S TRUE SON, BEGOTTEN AND PRODUCED DIRECTLY BY GOD THE FATHER, BEFORE AGES, AND WHO BECAME A PERFECT SINLESS AND HOLY MAN, AS THE MESSIAH OF ISRAEL, AND HOLY PRINCE, NO MORE AND NO LESS, AND TO BE OUR PASSOVER LAMB AND RANSOM SACRIFICE FOR CONDEMNED SINNERS, AND TO SANCTIFY HIS HEAVENLY FATHER'S DIVINE NAME, AND TO PREACH THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM AND OF GRACE. God's True Firstborn Son. Not some "figurative" Son, or some mystical trinitarian convoluted confusing "son", but a true begotten and brought forth Son, and who made the heavens and the earth, at the bidding and in the service of God, with the materials supplied by God the Father, and at His direction and supreme charge. If anything I just wrote is not really Scriptural, then don't just assert that it's not altogether Scriptural, buddy, BUT PROVE IT CHAPTER AND VERSE. Otherwise, anything you say rings sooooo hollow. I could show you Verse after Verse, unadulterated, that supports everything I just wrote. (just like you have many people, like Charles Stanely the wacko, pushing the non-Scriptural demon-inspired idea of unconditional "eternal security" or "once saved always saved" no matter what a person does or doesn't do, and regardless of James 2 and A HOST of different Verses in the Gospels and Pauline Epistles and Revelation that "eternal security" is conditioned on faithfulness and obedience to known Truths --Romans, 1 Corinthians, Mathew, etc--because it's "feel good" religion and emotionally appealing, and it's what a person WANTS to believe, rather than what the REAL Biblical data support and teach and indicate. The willfully stubborn will simply not want to see all the Verses and comparisons and cross-references and true unbiased meanings and clear points of Verses of Scripture. The Bible was written in such a way so as to test men's hearts. God knew that there would be this crap. To separate the men from the boys. Who had the guts to stick up for REAL UNADULTERATED UNPOPULAR BIBLE TRUTHS AND FACTS, regardless of cockeyed "church councils" or partially true partially false and dopey "church creeds and confessions" or "historic positions" and emotional "traditions" of men and man-made corrupted churches, and popular beliefs, AND regardless of what men around them would think or say about them. The pure Truth is not popular in a demon-controlled world. And Satan is crafty. And subtle. One big thing he's pulled off is having people think that calling Christ Almighty God in the same sense as the Father, and confusing co-equal co-eternal non-sensical "Trinity" is bringing praise and honor to Christ, and on the surface it seems so. Mixing truth with lies and distortions and extremism and exaggerations. And the Devil has been laughing his ass off for centuries now. Ever since around the time demonized Constantine and the arch-heretic Athanasius presided over that godless mess, called the Council of Nicea, in 325 C.E. A Roman Catholic council. If you're intellectually and historically honest, the trinity doctrine is actually a Roman Catholic doctrine and heresy. Which ostensibly brings honor to Christ, but actualy DIShonors both Him and the Father, since it contradicts and confuses what both of Them believe and teach, and denies the true honest and factual reality about Them. The Father is truly greater than the Son, as Christ Himself confessed, WITHOUT qualifications about "manhood only." Jesus called the Father "My God." The Father calls NO BODY "My God." The Father is SUPREME, buddy. (John 14:28; John 17; John 20:17) The Trinity doctrine contradicts our Lord's words. Tsk Tsk Tsk. Again, IF the Holy Bible really clearly unambiguously Athanasianism and real credal Trinitarianism--that Almighty God was actually three co-equal co-eternal and con-substantial (a Sabellian term by the way) Persons con-joined in One Supreme Being--and that Jesus Christ was actually literally truly equal with His Father in every single thing, and co-eternal with Him, THEN I WOULD BELIEVE AND PREACH IT. But I don't find such clear undeniable unambiguous things in there. And don't give me this gas about "oh you can't believe it unless you have the Holy Spirit and faith" blah blah blah. Spare me that retarded line. It's weak and silly. Anyway, that's basically it. Everything I've said has NOT been refuted one iota, either logically or Biblically. So I said (actually what God's Word says) still stands. May God help you and open your eyes and heart and save you from your sins and issues, and hopefully you'll get right with Him. I don't wish anything bad on anybody. May the Lord keep you, and good day. (if you wanna respond, please do so.) G.R.
sweetscholar you layed it down. >SMACK< Good job.