Was Jesus the first creation. (page 9)

Hellrider

JosephMalik:

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

This doesn`t exclude heavenly beings. This doesn`t define the Words creation to only refer to this planet, and the things on it. This doesn`t mean that the "all things were created by him" correlates in a "one-to-one" relationship with the expression "the world".

What do you have to show? Nothing! That is all that you have offered so far.

Calm down...we`re only discussing, no need to get all Jihad in here.

And you still haven`t adressed the issue of the need for a christian to arrive at a theology that would bring the different passages in harmony with eachother (regardless of the historical development of the Bible, etc). One way or the other, an acceptable theology has to bring the passages in Genesis, Isaiah and John into harmony. Your alternative doesn`t do that. Trinitarianism, however, does.

gold_morning

Read some of the scriptures below...besides... look at the term.."first lady" when refered to the presidents wife. I don't think our "first lady Bush" means she is the first woman to ever live.

God is Alpha and Omega Rev. 1:8
Jesus is Alpha and Omega Rev. 22:12-16

God returns to Mt. of Olives Zech 14:4-5
Jesus returns to Mt. of Olives Acts 1:9-12

The gospel of God 2 Cor. 11:7
The gospel of Christ 2 Cor. 10:14

Jehovah is Lord Dt. 6:4, 2 Sam. 7:28, Ps.
18:31, Ps. 118:27, 1 Kings 18:39
Jesus is Lord Phil. 2:11, 1 Cor. 12:3, John 13:13, Jude 4, 1 Cor.
16:23

****God is Savior Isa. 43:3, 10-11, Hos. 13:4****
****Jesus is Savior Luke 2:11, Acts 4:10-12, Titus 1:3-4, 2:13***

God is Creator Gen. 1:1, Ps. 102:25
Jesus is Creator Col. 1:16, Heb. 1:2,10, John 1:3,10

God is worshipped Ex. 20:3-5, Rev. 22:9
Jesus is worshipped Heb. 1:6, John 20:28, Matt. 28:9

God pours out Spirit Joel 2:27-28
Jesus pours out Spirit Acts 2:33

God is Judge Ps. 50:5-6, Rom. 2:5
Jesus is Judge John 5:22, Rev. 2:23, 22:12

God is Shepherd Psalm 23:1
Jesus is Shepherd John 10:14

God knows all Ps. 139:1-4
Jesus knows all John 21:17

God forgives sins Jer. 31:34, Luke 5:21
Jesus forgives sins Matt. 9:2, Mark 2:5-10

God sanctifies us 1 Thess. 5:22
Jesus sanctifies us Eph. 5:25-26

Every knee bows to God Isa. 45:21-23
Every knee bows to Jesus Phil. 2:10-11

gumby

Is this a distinctly separate group, and if so is it the human race or specifically the Jewish race?

Jesus said he was to preach only to the lost tribes of Israel. Paul expresses it was to the jew first the promises were made....then the gentiles. Jesus made reference to these "others" in his "I have sheep that are not of this fold" speech......in which Peter fullfilled with the vision of the gentiles.

Malik is correct in stating the world CAN mean people.....however in John 1 it's quite obvious it realates to all MATERIAL things and those things unseen.

Gumby Oral Roberts the third

LittleToe

Gumby:
But, but, but, then how am I to understand what he writes a couple of chapters on:

Joh 3:16-19 KJV "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

Does God only love the lost tribes of Israel??

Further, why is it that Jesus (as "the light" of chapter one) comes into the world, but it's men that reject him? We have "the world", "his own" and "men", all being mentioned in various states of undress...

Is this further obsfucated by the thought that the first five verses of John were an early hymn, that John elaborated on?

Kenneson

It's quite obvious that Jesus existed before the human race. See John 17:5, 24 and 1 Pet. 1:20 It's also quite obvious that He was with the Father before He came to earth. John 3:31; John 16:28. He existed before John the Baptist (John 1:30), although John was conceived before Jesus (Luke 1:24-27). Jesus claims to have existed even before Abraham (John 8:58) Heb. 1:10 applies to Jesus the words found at Ps. 102:25, which were also applied to the Father. See also Heb. 1:2

LittleToe

Kenneston:
I don't think that bit is under dispute here.

The current question is; did he precede all creation, as the uncreated creator?

Hellrider

That`s right, LT. The question here all boils down to this:

In Genesis God blows the spirit into the first man, Adam. In Isaiah God is "“I am the Lord, who made everything, who alone stretched out the sky, who fashioned the earth all by myself" (seen in light of Genesis, this also includes man), and in Psalm 102:25, it`s " In earlier times you established the earth; the skies are your handiwork."

...and then John comes in and complicates everything: " The Word was with God in the beginning. 1:3 All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created"...and this includes man! Later on it says that he was among his own (those he created, men), and they didn`t listen to him! And this is the issue JosephMalik hasn`t answered. We don`t have to discuss whether "all things" means only the things on earth, humans and such, because the problem is there anyway! In Genesis, God creates Adam. In John, Jesus is clearly stated as the creator of man. (and yeah yeah, I know I`m not considering the historical development of jewish thought and religion blah blah blah, but that`s not the point. The point is, that to a christian, to a person trying to establish a theology, the different parts of the Bible has to "fit" with eachother!)

And only in trinitarianism is this disreprancy between the different parts of the Bible not a problem! So there you have it, once again I solved the problem. All is ok, we can all go home now. I should frikkin establish a church or something. There`ll be healing, exorcisms, speaking in tongues and snake-handling on every meeting. Oh, and the collect will be sent around twice (at least). Big bills only. Have a good day.

MerryMagdalene

...'scuse me if I'm just a dumbass...but...consider (or reconsider) the phrase "kai ho logos en pros ho theon." Usually translated "and the Word was with the God," what if you read pros (a strengthened form of pro) according to one one of the other meanings of pro--PRIOR TO?

"...and the Word was prior to the God..."

What if the primal mind/creative word brought "god" into being first and then god (being self-awareness/ego and spirit, father and mother) brought everything else into being through the word? Is that too weird? silly? heretical?

I'm just askin'...

~Merry

Leolaia

Unfortunately, pros is a distinct preposition from pro, and requires a different case (genitive instead of accusative), so if "prior to God" is what is meant, pro tou theou would likely be the phrase, not pros ton theon.

MerryMagdalene

thanks for clearing that up for me, Leolaia

~Merry

Was Jesus the first creation.

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