do you believe this part of the bible

by joanne_ 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Soledad
    Soledad

    I don't know. I think that god's "great plan" so far has not worked out.

    Whether he wants his son to carry out the mission or an earthly organization is a complete mystery to me.

    I think it's time we issue a warrant for his arrest and an indictment, what do you all think?

    If the all-powerful almighty could send down a plague of locusts and frogs I think he could spare a few minutes with us in a Yahoo chatroom detailing this so-called great plan for humanity and solve the mystery once and for all.I'm sure that is where he'll find the greatest audience, especially in those sex chatrooms.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Welcome Joanne,

    The first pages of the Bible might be described as an introduction to reality. They are old tales attempting to explain how/why things are what they are (from an ancient perspective of course). For instance, how we feel part of the world yet different from it (Genesis 1). How we have knowledge like the gods yet are mortal unlike them (2--3). How there is violence, technique and civilisation (4). How the world subsists in spite of catastrophes (5--9). How there is ethnical, linguistical and cultural diversity (10--11).

    Saying that God doesn't want humans to be mortal is missing the very point of the tale in 2--3 by rejecting its conclusion, which is precisely reality. And if we are to reject the conclusion we have to reject it completely: if God wants man to live forever then he doesn't want man to have knowledge. He doesn't want man to work. He doesn't want childbearing. He doesn't want the serpent to move on its belly. See my point?

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Saying that God doesn't want humans to be mortal is missing the very point of the tale in 2--3 by rejecting its conclusion, which is precisely reality. Narkissos, The reality really is that God does not want immortal humans that disobey, cause chaos and kill each other the way Cain killed Abel. The reality is a plan to filter out the good ones from the bad ones before such immortality is given later. The reality is to prove the creation and redeem those worthy to continue before advancing it further. Joseph

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    >We humans have a couple of choices. We can decide who and what we are and how we want our life to be, then, strive to achieve our purpose as intelligently as possible using our life as the standard of measurement as to what works and what is true. Or,...
    We can let other people's fanciful opinions hijack our sense of purpose and destiny and spend our entire life in a rut of ritual performance waiting for some magic to happen.

    That is a false dilemma, Terry. There are more possibilities than that, for instance: We can explore the mystical aspects of life (that is a natural part of our humanity), examine evidence and experience teachings that are handed down over millennia. We are adults, we need no one to tell us how to decide.

    >If your thinking is guided by practical everyday living you go one direction, and, if your thinking is guided by superstition and magic thinking you go off in another direction.

    Here is a straw man. You assume that spirituality is nothing more than ‘superstition and magic thinking’. You assume that spirituality is not practical. Do you have some guideline that is absolute that no one else has ever discovered?

    >I find religious people aren't really alive. They are hand-puppets going through the motions of some senseless direction of whoever has a hand up their ass.

    Oh, how crass. Are you the one who knows enough to tell us what is ‘really alive’ and what is ‘really living’? You act as if you yourself are not a product of your environment, a puppet of some belief system. Everyone has a god, whether it be self..ish pride, money, sex, you name it and it is an idol if it is what we live for.

    >Choose to live by experiencing life for yourself. The alternative is incredibly wasteful of the time you have to transcend mere existence.

    What in the world does this mess of ‘deep thinking’ really say? Why might you assume that a believer would not 'experience living for themselves'?

    >The BIBLE has been advertised to us since birth as a kind of magic answer book which it is not.

    ‘Science has been advertising itself as some kind of ultimate reality that pretends to answer the true meaning of life.’ The Bible, when studied seriously, has a remarkable insight into the human soul. It is a 'road map' for life and a 'manual' of man himself. It is a mirror that tells us our motivations and why we are AS we are. It contains numerous types of literature, written over millennia by man writers, yet it may answer the very questions that life itself cause us to ask: what is 'evil', why does it happen, what is beyond this life, etc.?

    >Substituting the hodge-podge of pseudo-history, fable and mind-control for life experience cripples you and hobbles your rational thinking.

    Mind control is what happens in a spiritually abusive cult. Not all that is mystical, nor even a large part of it is spiritually abusive. Can your ‘rational thinking’ teach you about the miracle of a live birth, the design inherent in a brain that can use sensory powers to walk, talk, see, hear, pray and imagine? If all of humanity could not get past the contemplation of its own navel we wouldn’t be here. Nihilistic thinking leads to a dismal existence and the champion of this philosophy was driven to suicide…..

    >Stop measuring purpose and meaning by the mythos of prehistoric guesswork propped up by authority figures who want to use you.

    Are you describing the icons of the present scientific establishment whose theories are contradictory, unobservable and undemonstrable?

    >IF God existed and had a purpose it would not be derailed for thousands of years and become entirely dependant on the whim of an inferior choice mechanism of a creature driven by short term passions: humans.

    Why is that? What evidence is this assertion based upon? What stands in the way of the providence of God? If your idea of God is limited to the JW teachings and open-theism you don't understand what God is!

    >But, there is only God for those who create Him.

    How can you know that, are you in fact, God?

    >For the rest of us, life is for living and the mind is for thinking and creating an experience of existence that is as incredibly thrilling and satisfying as lies within our power to construct by excellent choices.

    Where is your rationality here? Aren’t you contradicting yourself? Are you somehow superior to everyone wh o sees God from the immensity of creation down to the bond that can grow between a human and a pet that 'adopts' him?

    >Dump the mythology and get on with living your life.

    Mythology by definition contains truth.

    >Straighten your thinking out by abandoning superstition and hearsay.

    That is a partial definition of your post!

    < Be practical, be rational and break the addiction of craving other people's opinions on mystical nonsense parading as fact.

    Be practical, resign yourself to a hopeless average existence of seventy years, have no access to the spiritual world by denying it exists, no truth to live your life by and then die a useless life of pain and turmoil. Have you ever wondered what it would be like to live in a country where one is not coddled, live a short life of desperation and die as a result of the randomness of fate? You might count your blessings and quit whining....

    >I wish you the best.

    Do you have the best?
    Rex

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan
    do you believe this part of the bible

    Which part ?

  • mdb
    mdb

    The whole idea of a "paradise on earth" is unscriptural. There is no doctrinal evidence of it anywhere in the scriptures. Not one verse. It is a doctrine devised by the Watchtower Society in support of their "anointed class" doctrine that only 144000 people go to heaven. They had to find a way to give their followers some kind of hope for life after death since they claim the "anointed class" was fulfilled in the year 1935. Interestingly, they do not believe the forefathers of Israel nor the OT prophets (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Isaiah, Elijah, etc) are a part of this group, of which there is ample scriptural proofs that they are all in heaven with our Lord. In fact, Elijah was taken directly to heaven in a chariot of fire.

    Heaven and earth shall pass away. ~Luke 21:33

    The earth and everything in it shall be burned up. ~2 Peter 3:10

    There is a new heaven and a new earth ~Rev 21:1


    As for Terry and his great "worldly wisdom", God created you and regardless of what you conclude about the existence of God or what you do in this life, one day you too will have to stand before His judgement seat and give an account. It's a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Jesus Christ died for you that you might have life if you would only believe on Him. Don't choose death by living for worldly pleasures (lustful desires of the flesh) and deny the only person who can truely give life. This life we now live is but a moment compared to eternity. You don't know what you're throwing away.

  • mdb
    mdb

    Sam,

    You say you don't believe in the Bible.

    Have you ever read it? The Bible is the word of God. If you don't believe it, you say that it's false - that's equivalent to calling God a liar and God does not lie.

    If you've never read the bible, at least read the book of John. It's a good starting point.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Welcome mdb,

    What you wrote reminded me of one Gospel saying which clearly contradicts the WT stance (Matthew 8:11 // Luke 13:28):

    I tell you, many will come from east and west and will eat with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,
    while the heirs of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrown out. Then people will come from east and west, from north and south, and will eat in the kingdom of God.
    Hope you won't threaten the atheists on this board with too much "weeping and gnashing of teeth" though. Linked to the above is the aphorism "the first will be the last" et vice versa.
  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Yeah, mbd, relax on the threats, will you, he just said his opinion about the Bible. No need to threaten with eternal hellfire just for that.

    Just one thing: You mentioned 2.Peter, as a an argument against the WTS position. I always saw 2.Peter as one of the strongest arguments for the WTS view:

    2. Peter, 3:12 while waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God? Because of this day, the heavens will be burned up and dissolve, and the celestial bodies will melt away in a blaze! 3:13 But, according to his promise, we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness truly resides.

    The "new heaven and new earth"-phrase is repeated in Revelation. What`s this deal with a "new earth"? Anyone knows? I`m looking for an alternative explanation to the JW-view...

  • Balsam
    Balsam

    Joanne: The JW promise of living forever here on the earth is CT Russell's and others idea of what God will do for man kind. It is not soundly based on the bible. The bible's heaven is rather misty and unclear till you get to the NT then it seems to become the hope of all Christians. But before Christianity the hope of living forever in heaven didn't exsist in the Hebrew bible.

    Terry Said: There is only God for those who create Him .

    Love your comments Terry, and this is a difficult conclusion to come to. From going from absolute faith in that which has no proof, to awaking to reason and weighing the evidence about the God of the Bible. So it raises a question for those who do believe in a Creator God. Will God punish those who have needed more from him than human writings about him, some evidence of his divine love and mercy toward mankind.? We have no provable historical evidence of such about any peoples god. And people of faith should be worried about this lack of proof and evidence of a God that cares about Mankind. We have biblical writings that declare how merciful and loving God is, but we can't point to single historical event or fact that is provable to back it up. Why is it that God does not provide this very important proof of his interest in us as his creation? We need to examine and look at loyality to a god from a reasoning standpoint, scientific standpoint that will utterly bring us all to our knees in utter appreciation of him. It would be a simple matter for an all powerful God would it not?

    Why is it that we totally drop the ball on reason when anyone mentions GOD? If someone asks us to jump off a building and telling us that we won't die we would want proof wouldn't you? We'd want to see safety measures that would prevent our death by jumping and having confidence in this person. But when it comes to belief in God, it is built on no proof at all, and people don't require it. Why in this one area of our life are we so lacking in reason for believing in God? I know it is frightening for believers in God from all walks of life to even consider such a thing as questioning the existence of God, but question it we must.

    Perhaps we need to look at faith and re-examine what we require personally in order to have a sound faith? We should demand the same evidence and proof of God as we would a stanger who asked us to jump off a building without knowing them. We would say, "show me proof". Faith needs the same guildlines so it does not become blind faith. Perhaps it is time to put an end to blind faith in the human writings of thousands of years ago we call God's word.

    Balsam

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