Help needed - How to debate a knowledgeable jw to help my jw girlfriend

by bohm 30 Replies latest members private

  • bohm
    bohm

    Hello everybody!

    The brief version

    My (jw) girlfriend want me to talk with an elder about jw-questions so i see things from multiple viewpoints and this may calm some of her concerns. I agree. What is the best way to approach this? How can i turn this into a good conversation that will benefit my girlfriend? any experiences? (im not into converting him, not even her - i just want some good conversations that she may benefit from)

    The long version

    Brief information -My girlfriend is a babtized jw, i am an atheist. (can be skipped) We love each other and her belief does not interfer in our daily life, however, its something she is definately not cleared up about (and which she is taking a lot of heat for by her family). I was stupid when i met her - didnt know shit about religion in general and jw in particular, so i overwhelmed her with questions and 'did you know that wts disfellowed women who was raped and did not cry for help up in the 80s' kind of facts.

    This has filled her with doubts - she does not know what to believe, the thought of no salvation make her sad, she is not out and often take up lines of argumentation i have heard and read many times before in the litterature, and use rationalizations that give me the creeps (like: but they make mistakes, the light get brighter, do you think you know more than all of them, etc.). On the other hand, she has not gone to a meeting in months and has no problems with worldly people, even homosexuals.

    I truly love her and want her to be happy, either a jw or not - much of my opposition against jw is that i am afraid it will strangle our relationship because her conscience will not allow her to see us. However, she is on her way out of a turbolent periode of her life, and i feel that being of two minds on such an important subject, and one which she is constantly resieving indirect blame for by her parents, is dangerous. I therefore want to help her any way i can, even if i wont like the outcome of the descision.

    A pattern that often recurs in our discussion about jw is the following which i think many of you know: We have talked about a point, questions and problems have been raised, but she does not feel sattisfied with her own line of arguments. She feel that i get my arguments from places critical of jw - a onesidedness - and that, when she is not able to answer me, it may be her fault and not really a problem with the belief or argument we are discussing. now this is the thing - i abselutely have to agree with her.

    I do get much of my information from critical places, i have never sat down and done a study in the way the society suggests, or with someone who are more knowledgeable about jw than i am with the (narrow!) topics i discuess, like noahs ark, which she readily admit never ment a great deal to her anyway.

    She is right that it smell of interlectual dishonesty to say: "well, i am so certain of evolution/the faithfull slave was selected by God that i dont need to talk with an actual creationist who is extremely knowledgeable about the topic (though with a different perspective than me!) because he is wrong" - and at the same time talk about jehovahs witness doing the same mistake with critical litterature. And while i dont think the two situations are exactly alike, they are somewhat compareable (especially if one consider that there may be other methods than the scientific to arrive at facts, and i only accept proof from a scientific viewpoint) and certainly leave a stain, and since i want to do everything i can to calm her doubts about this i must take it seriously.

    So this is where the elder come into this picture. I have met him once and he seems like really nice guy - he seem very intelligent and from our brief conversation he seemed to listen and agree with much of what i said. The other thing about him - there was some threads about jw not knowing their own doctrines - everything i know indicates he is not one of them. This is actually really good - as i said, my objective is not to look smart, or convert him, it is to help my girlfriend who want me to talk with him.

    So this is it. How does i manage such a conversation? I dont believe in god. Properly never will, but i try to keep an open mind. I am somewhat knowledgeable about technical stuff and a complete moron on biblical matters (i have never read the bible). There are subjects where i feel i can hold my own and basically roll on with the arguments i presented to my girlfriend. I am certain he has rationalizations for all of them, even if they are miracles, and my girlfriend will gain very little. besides, if i was in his shoes in such a conversation, i would go completely in the defensive and it would be held in a bad mood.

    What i think he wants is to begin a bible study. I think i want to avoid that for the simple reason that when i dont believe in god i think it will make the conversation very monotome. (assume god, answer question x) and my girlfriend will know about everything that comes forth in such a conversation.

    I got my own idea about how i might handle it, but it was my own ideas that got me into this mess, so i think i will rather ask you guys for help and suggestions. one final thing: i want to be honest with him and not lie. i owe it to him and my girlfriend (and myself). i want this to be constructive, dammit!

    oh yes, most importantly! is there anything i should avoid saying that might get her into troubles in the judicial kind of way? (i mean, besides the obvious).

    ps

    i have read releasing the bonds and captives of a concept... i think a study like the one in captives of a concept will be optimal, but it would be very hard to do since it would be outside his comfort zone and i think he will know what im getting at.

  • startingovernow
    startingovernow

    Crisis of Conscience is really the best book to prepare yourself. Add to that the changing teachings on blood, the hypocritical affiliation with the UN, and the hiding of child abuse and you will have all you need. But be prepared, the elder will brush off all of that because all that matters is what the Bible says (according to their newest publication).

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    If I knew the answer to that question I could shut down the Watchtower in a year.

    They have got years of practice dealing with people like you. You are a fish in a barrel.

    Do not discuss scripture with them. That needs years of practice and seldom works because they don't really believe the Bible.

    The primary target should be their claim to be selected by God. I would have thought this was covered in Releasing the Bonds. I haven't read it.

    Please be aware that they have been practicing the art of redirecting conversation to subjects that they are comfortable with for years. They are very good at it. You must have a subject in mind and stick with that subject like a dog with a bone or they will make you look like a fool.

    You must pick a single, simple subject and not let it expand into multiple subjects. It must be formatted as a question. You can not tell them anything, they don't listen.

    I'll call back later and see if anyone has come up with some good suggestions. Meanwhile, have a look at my posts here http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/179905/1/Do-I-have-to-have-been-baptised-to-be-apostate-New-to-forum

    Cheers

    Chris

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    Be careful I am pro-witness and the arguments used by apostates on these forums are becoming obvious now to many witnesses. There is a tendency to attack the structure of witnesses and the people rather than Jehovah our God or our biblical beliefs. In a way this is a good thing for us and it shows up a lot of flaws in the apostate/anti-witness arguments.

    You do not like the imperfection point but (and I ask this of anyone that doesn't) you accept it in Politions? you accept in courts of law that mistakes can be made even after appeals? Or imperfect bosses and work mates in our jobs. Our bodies cannot survive beyond our lifespan. That as individuals we can hurt others knowing we are in the wrong? If someone tells me my leaders are imperfectmen I'll just nod and say yes they are right and yet for some they demand perfection from the human element of a religion yet in every other aspect of their life they accept imperfection as the norm.

    I recommend reading the bible for your discussions because that is the common ground. I do not know how you feel on the bible but I respect anyone who can discuss the bible with me as God's word since that is where I get my faith from even if we disagree.

    You are a man who recognises the need to see both sides and that will come across as it has to me when I read your words. We soon see when someone is so set on critisising witnesses with an internet list straight from apostates they shoot themselves in the foot. It's better to be honest to your own thoughts.

    Reniaa

  • John Doe
    John Doe
    If someone tells me my leaders are imperfectmen I'll just nod and say yes they are right and yet for some they demand perfection from the human element of a religion yet in every other aspect of their life they accept imperfection as the norm.

    Do you see a difference in offering a human opinion as a human opinion compared with claiming that human opinion is god's infallible and perfect direction and you'll be subject to sanctions if you don't agree? I know of very few organizations that exact such unquestioning allegiance, and that is a grave difference.

  • purplesofa
    purplesofa

    I guess what I am wondering is if your GF is planning on going full fledged active JW, because if she is, you could be history.

    She may be testing you out to see if she can convert you over to beleiving in Jehovah.

    I may be entirely off base.

    I don't know your age, but I think on down the road it would be very difficult to be athiest and be with someone that is very religious.

    Maybe I am putting too much emphasis on this as a bond between two people.

    I don't know how to advise you on talking with the elder. If you are not a sponge and take it all in, he may start telling your GF that you are not good for

    her to associate with any longer.

    At some point she will be required to make a choice.

    purps

  • bluecanary
    bluecanary
    You do not like the imperfection point but (and I ask this of anyone that doesn't) you accept it in Politions?

    No I do not accept it. I obey because they force me to, but I do not accept that other human beings have the right to make policy for me.

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    Hi john doe

    If we didn't have the bible john doe I'd be agreeing with you but we do and its a good measure against doctrine. We also have the world around us as a measure. In many ways we have never had it so good. We have the technology, healthcare, communication and knowledge to alleviate most hunger, pain and suffering around us IMO in humanity as a whole but we cannot stop destroying each other or just not caring enough. It's my awareness of what humanity can now do but doesn't do, that makes me turn to Jehovah and the timeless commonsense practicality of his word as well as the hope beyond what is so obviously eluding mankind.

    HI bluecanary

    the question then is..If you were president would you do a better job?

    Reniaa

  • John Doe
    John Doe

    That's not the issue reniaa.

  • bluecanary
    bluecanary
    the question then is..If you were president would you do a better job?

    For me, that is not the question at all. I support self-government. I won't get into how that works, because I'd rather not hijack this thread anymore than we already have. If you are interested, I can direct you to sites with information on the topic. My point is that I do not not accept imperfection as an excuse for anyone when they are making decisions about my life. I am not singling the Governing Body out in this regard. And I would venture to say that most people do not accept it as an excuse from their leaders. You probably agree with me that people are unreasonably optimistic when voting a leader in to office, but once the person is elected they are usually up for scrutiny and disagreement. And there is at least some degree of accountability for political leaders. Does the GB have any accountability to its constituents?

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