Today, I had a great conversation with a Dub. We were just talking about general things, he often likes to talk about life in the New System, so there he is, telling me about his plans for the house he's going to build (Big mansion, in the mountains, all the usual, of course) So, feeling a bit bored, I decided to throw in a question:
'Why does Revelation 19:1 state that the Great Crowd is in heaven'? He looks at me blankly, he then goes to his car to get a bible, comes back, looks it up, stares at it for a minute, then says 'Oh, that must be a great crowd of angels.' I asked him how he came to this conclusion, and he said 'I think it explains it in the Revelation book, I'll look it up when I get home.'
So, I decide to leave this one for now, until I hear whatever silly explanation the Revelation book gives him, and we go back to discussing general things, and mid-conversation on the evils of MySpace, he just stops talking, flicks back to Rev 19:1, and then says:
'This whole great crowd in heaven thing is a bit of a mess really, isn't it?' I asked: 'What do you mean?' Since I don't actually know what 'a bit of a mess' is supposed to mean... And he then says 'It doesn't matter, what's the scripture that says the Great Crowd has an Earthly hope?' So I told him that there wasn't one, but he was insistent that there was, and he then expanded by saying 'It's the one that says they come from every tribe and tongue and nation.' So I pointed him to Revelation 7, where... he didn't find anything about an Earthly hope. So, I'm a fader talking to a fully indoctrinated Dub, but I can't let this opportunity go, so I take a bit of a risky move here, by highlighting verse 15, that says the Great Crowd serve day and night in God's temple, and then point him to Ch. 11:19, and Ch. 14:17 to show him where this temple is.
He reads the other scriptures, says nothing, flicks back and forth several times, still saying nothing. Then he stops, smiles at me, and says... Wait for it... :
'I think we might be getting some brighter light soon.'
I swear, only a Jehovah's Witness could be faced with absolute evidence that one of their major doctrines is absolutely wrong, and yet rather than admit that the GB are just a bunch of posers, he decides that if we wait on Jehovah, he'll correct them. I pointed out to him that they've been teaching for 71 years what I picked up was wrong in a few hours of reading, and asked him then what made him think they'd change it anytime soon? He then says 'I don't know, I still have to look it up in the Revelation book. Just forget about it for now, and I'll phone you tonight and let you know what it says.'
Oh well, if he doesn't call me, I'll make sure to chase him up, could cause me some troubles, if he decides to ask an elder, but I can't let this one go can I? I hope admitting that they had it wrong for a brief moment, shows that he has a good chance of getting it soon. I've been throwing in questions like this, in conversations with Dubs for months now, and never get anything, so I was rather pleased with this small success anyway.
But now, I have a question: How does the Society actually deal with Rev 19:1, and the Great Crowd serving in God's temple in heaven? Because I don't actually know, and I want to be prepared for his phone call. Thanks!
I may have a new apostate friend soon! Need some information.
by Zico 13 Replies latest members private
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Zico
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fullofdoubtnow
Hi Zico,
I think the answer is not very well. No jw I have ever known has ever been able to fully answer that question in a convincing way. There will be something about it in the wts publications, but I remember asking an elder about this, as someone I met in the ministry had asked me a similar question, and I could find no scriptural reference to a great crowd apart from the one which is clearly in heaven. His answer was that the society says the great crowd will be on the earth, and we just have to believe it, because the society are guided by jehovah. Not very satisfactory and, needless to say really, the person who had asked wasn't prepared to "just believe it", although at the time I, being totally brainwashed, was.
Keep us posted on what your friend comes up with, I somehow doubt it will be very convincing, if he actually comes up with anything at all.
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Gopher
Wasn't there some jazz they said about the great crowd serving in "the earthly courtyards of the temple" ? It sounded like the Watchtower version of this temple stretched in some form from heaven to earth.
Just like much Watchtower logic, a great stretch.
Just goes to show anyone can make the Bible say what they want it to say.
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pixel
They say that even thou the Great Crowd is ithere, they are not there for real. they say that they are here on earth and jehova sees them. they compare this with something that happened back in Moses times with Israel.
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AuldSoul
You could bend his brain into a pretzel by asking him where the NWT says that "paradise" will be on earth.
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Zico
He sent me an e-mail instead. Which works better for me, as I have time to make a response. Auldsoul, I'll ask him your question in my response.
He said that there has to be a Paradise Earth, because you can't 'enter into the Kingdom of God unless you are baptised by water and spirit' and the guy on the stake next to Jesus wasn't baptised, so apparently this has to mean a different paradise to an Earthly one.
He sent me a very confusing and poorly written Watchtower article that I barely understand, about the Greek word na'os, meaning temple, and, what Gopher said, stuff about inner sanctuaries and other nonsense. And the best argument he could come up with on Rev 19:1 was that since it didn't mention that the great crowd there were from every tribe, tongue and nation, it must refer to a different great crowd. (Of course!)
A quote from that WT article says in reference to them serving day in the night in the temple or sanctuary:
"By sanctuary, what did those Jews mean?
5 Certainly not the inner sanctuary that contained the vestibule, the Holy and the Most Holy compartments. They meant the temple structure as a whole, including its courtyards, in one of which the money changers and merchantmen were doing business"
So I thought I'd point out that Rev 11:19, and 17:14 also use the word Greek word naos in Revelation (According to bible.cc) which must also then describe the whole temple, so that it doesn't matter where they are in the temple, the temple is still in heaven. Does this work? The article never mentions those scriptures at Rev 11 and 17.
Anyone have any thoughts?
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skyking
Great! Thanks for the scriptures never knew this. Keep him on his toes.
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Honesty
He sent me a very confusing and poorly written Watchtower article that I barely understand, about the Greek word na'os, meaning temple, and, what Gopher said, stuff about inner sanctuaries and other nonsense. And the best argument he could come up with on Rev 19:1 was that since it didn't mention that the great crowd there were from every tribe, tongue and nation, it must refer to a different great crowd. (Of course!)
A quote from that WT article says in reference to them serving day in the night in the temple or sanctuary:
"By sanctuary, what did those Jews mean?
5 Certainly not the inner sanctuary that contained the vestibule, the Holy and the Most Holy compartments. They meant the temple structure as a whole, including its courtyards, in one of which the money changers and merchantmen were doing business"Give him something to really think about:
Revelation 7:15 (New World Translation) That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.
December 1, 1972 Watchtower page 722:
This beautiful vision presents the international "great crowd" as serving Jehovah in his temple, that is, in the earthly courtyards reserved for those who are not spiritual Israelites, as it were in the "courtyard of the Gentiles."
July 1, 1996 Watchtower page 20:
As foretold, the great crowd "are worshiping God day and night in his temple." ... Since they are not spiritual, priestly Israelites, John likely saw them standing in the temple in the outer courtyard of the Gentiles.
August 15, 1980 Watchtower page 17:
The Watchtower Society's conception of "Jehovah's Temple Arrangement." Note the portrayal of the court of the gentiles as a place where happy worshippers of God render sacred service day and night. This contrasts sharply with the Bible's use of this courtyard to symbolize a period of oppression by those not numbered among true worshippers at Revelation 11:2.
Rev 11:1-2 Then I was given a measuring reed like a rod, with these words: “Go and measure God’s sanctuary and the altar, and [count] those who worship there. But exclude the courtyard outside the sanctuary. Don’t measure it, because it is given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.
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jwfacts
thats great, it may be a bit much for him to change so rapidly, but at least he is finally thinking. Are you sure you want to go into too much detail with him as it may get you in trouble with the elders?
If you go to http://jwfacts.com/index_files/greatcrowd.htm it talks about the Great Crowd and the Naos explaination. What article did he send you? The 1980 was dishonest in its use of the word, and the explaination was changed in 2002. The 2002 offers no logical explaination of why Naos can refer to earth. Anyway, if he sent you anything earlier than 2002 then you can tell him that it is old light that has been changed.
Auld Souls question is great. Look at http://jwfacts.com/index_files/earthforever.htm for information on the word Paradise. The Jews believed this was heavenly, and the word paradise is used only four times in the New World Translation of the Bible and each passage discussing a location refers to heaven. (Song of Solomon 4:13; Luke 23:39-43; 2 Corinthians 12:1-7; Revelation 2:5-7)
The Bible speaks exclusively of the future resurrection being heavenly.
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Zico
I think I'll leave the issue for a bit, give it some time to sink in for him, but I'll make sure to raise it again in future.
JWfacts, the article was the 1980 one you quote on your website. It didn't really disprove the idea that JWs aren't going to heaven anyway, since the naos is still said to be in heaven in Rev 11:19, and Rev 14:17, (I think), but it's good to know it's changed. I've bookmarked the links you gave me, they gave me some new information and scriptures I didn't know about, which is very helpful. Thanks.