GB Admits It Has No Answers, Blood

by Maximus 63 Replies latest jw friends

Maximus

"In contrast with humans, who have a limited life span, Jehovah never feels pressured by time to reveal his secrets prematurely. This fact should prevent us from becoming impatient when certain Bible questions cannot presently be explained to our satisfaction.
"Modesty on the part of the faithful and discreet slave class, commissioned to provide the Christian household with food at the proper time, prevents it from presumptuously running ahead and wildly speculating about things that are still unclear.
"The slave class strives to avoid being dogmatic. It is not too proud to admit that as of now it cannot answer every question, keeping Proverbs 4:18 clearly in mind.
"But how thrilling to know that Jehovah, in his own due time and in his own way, will continue to reveal his secrets as to his purposes! Never should we become impatient with Jehovah's arrangement, indiscreetly trying to rush ahead of the Revealer of secrets. How reassuring it is to know that the channel Jehovah is using today does not do so! I t is both faithful and discreet.--Matthew 24:45; 1 Corinthians 4:6."
From Watchtower w97 6/1 pp. 13, 14: A Secret Christians Dare Not Keep!
In light of the many changes we have seen it make in recent years, how can the "governing body" of the FDS say it does not run ahead of Jehovah? How did Jehovah reveal his long-hidden secrets about the "generation" issue? How did he reveal a true Christian can now take hemoglobin from cow's blood and other blood fractions but not others? How did this change from being unclear to clear? Isn't this inconsistent and dogmatic in itself?
If the Bible is so unclear the FDS has not got certain changed teachings right for many decades, and the FDS does not want to indiscreetly rush ahead and to "wildly speculate," how did Jehovah communicate to the faithful slave his secrets about blood fractions and the whole host of other changes we have seen occur?
Note for whoever wants to proceed even deeper: In addition, surely the Revealer of secrets must know that fetal nucleated red blood cells and white blood cells "naturally pass" the placental barrier. (For the record, Hawk has documented over 40 papers on this issue.) The great Physiologist allows the "natural passage" of blood from one to another, and of course He would not break his own law. Isn't that the FDS reasoning used regarding the "placental barrier" argument used for approving albumin? Have I missed something?
Hawk also has countless articles on monochorionic pregnancies: two identical fetuses (individual humans to the FDS) sharing one placenta. I am indebted to him for reminding me that "the neat thing is that the fetuses are exchanging whole blood between the two of them 'naturally' because there is only one placenta!!!" Our Grand Architect knows this. Is this still a secret?
I find the presentation of this article particularly galling and patronizing. And really unsatisfying. Then again, the FDS has much to be modest about. It is very good at keeping organizational secrets when it comes to pedophiles.
What are your thoughts, and why?
Maximus
gsark

My thoughts, Maximus is that they are maniacs.
Any one who acts this way in the real world is mentally ill. It's interesting to me that so many of us shrink from reaching this conclusion even after all we have collectively been through.
And if you read my post Watchtower and Rape please help, you know why I think so.
Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!
Maximus

gsark, the public will oneday be made fully aware of the internal struggle it took to get this obscene policy "adjusted." I know exactly what you mean.
God just didn't whisper loud enough in revealing his secrets to the "governing body." Or they surely were not paying attention.
Warmest,
Max
Can't help but think of the line in Monty Python's "Life of Brian," when someone doesn't hear the Sermon on the Mount too well, and says, "Wot did 'ee say? Blessed are the cheese-makers?"
.
CPiolo

Maximus:
Thanks for a well presented, succinct and logical post.
Having never been a JW, the Watchtower's arguments very often ring hollow, and much of what they say is so because they say it so. This obviously is about power and control, power over people and control over their lives for whatever twisted reason they may have, be it genuine missplaced concern for others or simply for the ego and power trip those with power often succumb to.
The sad thing is the rank and file members, like my wife, who blindly and obediently follow the tripe produced by the WT without ever giving it a second thought because they sincerely believe they are with "Jehovah's organization" and a part of "his people." Therefore, everthing published and preached from the platform is God-given truth for these very special people who have the good fortune of being a part of a greater cause, giving meaning to an otherwise ordinary life.
May I ask you what removed your WT blinders? Was it a gradual thing, with a final straw breaking the Camel's back, so to speak, or one thing suddenly lifting the fog? You're obviously a highly intelligent man and I know you grew up in the organization and was curious.
Peace and blessings,
CPiolo
The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde
sf

jw's were at my door this morn...(four times in two months...i detect a pattern here(bwahhhhhhhhhhh))
Good for them, I was in the shower!! This bit of "old light by now" sure would have been fun to throw in their faces.
sKally, "VERY NAKED APOSTATE" klass
Defender

Good post Maximus,
Let alone their vacillating issues re time settings, blood, generation and others, just how they can make such blatant assumptions is incredible. I imagine the GB standing before Christ and trying to impress him with such assertions like: “We were modest, faithful and discreet. Were we not?”
Their situation is worse than those that would claim to have done great works in Jesus name, yet Christ rejects them as lawless. At least those condemned are going to try to impress Jesus with the notion that “We were trying to serve you” though their inner motive was selfish. The GB on the other hand, is assuredly running ahead of Christ’s judgment in predetermining that their service is approved and that they are modest, faithful and discreet.
When in fact, faithfulness calls for discretion and discretion calls for modesty and modesty calls for utter humility. Even if one is entirely blameless, and has committed his life and all his resources to Christ, but as imperfect human and so called slave of Christ, one should be humble enough to admit that he is not modest, nor faithful, and definitely not discreet and let Christ himself judge him otherwise.
The other incredible thing , is how articles like these did not raise alarm bells in our minds, well at least in my case.
Trilobite

Maximus,
Excellent points.
"Then again, the FDS has much to be modest about."
Poor Clement, unlike the FDS, was a sheep in sheep's clothing. The FDS is now in a situation more comparable to Chamberlain; "He was given the choice between dishonour and war. He chose dishonour and will have war anyway."
T.
hawkaw

Maximus (thanks for your post) and I would love to hear from Dr. Sam Muramoto on this when he gets a free moment.
Monochorionic Pregnancy (Identical Twins)
I put this up back in March when I tried to tell everyone about Twin to Twin Transfusion Syndrome. It happens in about 5 to 15 % and one has suggested as high as 25% of monochorionic pregnancies. So 85 to 95 % or 75 to 95 % of the time we get beautiful identical babies that have shared blood. Cool eh!! (oh sorry about that Canadian slang). The TTT syndrome is now known in the medical community because the artificial pregnancy technology is causing a lot more of these occurrences. The syndrome is treatable in some cases but it has to be caught. One would think that a "grand" Hospital Information Service (Cough, cough) that touts reading and reviewing some 3,600 medical journals would "stumble" (love that word) across this little "natural blood flow" between two fetuses (humans in the eyes of the WT).
For your information please click here:
( http://www.netspace.org/hchkids/surgery/MADAM%20TTTS.html
Twin-to-twin transfusion occurs in a monochorionic pregnancy (i.e., identical twins who share a single placenta) when blood from one fetus circulates to the other twin. In general, identical twins normally exchange some blood during gestation; this exchange is usually balanced, so that one twin will act as the 'blood donor' one moment, and as the 'recipient' the next. The twin-to-twin transfusion syndrome occurs when one twin always 'donates' blood to the other, because the communication between the two is unbalanced.
or click here
( http://www.twin2twin.org/What_is_TTTS.htm
In twins that share a common placenta (known as 'monochorionic' twins), blood vessels within the shared placenta commonly form a "link" between the developing babies. In most cases of monozygotic twins sharing the same placenta these joined vessels can include artery-to-artery, vein-to-vein, and artery-to-vein connections. One theory is that usually these connections balance each other out and cause no ill effect.
or click
( http://tttsfoundation.com/
With respect to the placental barrier's natural movement ........
The WT likes to tell their flock that researchers have shown fractions of blood such as albumin, "naturally move" between mother and fetus (child). Thus, these fractions are a matter of conscience and not banned (June 15, 2001 WT - Questions to the Readers pp 29-31)
Well then, when your or your loved one's life is on the line, maybe you can get your local WT Blood Nazis (aka Hospital Liaison Committee member) to explain the natural movement of red blood cells and white blood cells in these references: (P.S. - leukocytes = are a type of white blood cell, erythrocytes are immature red blood cells Most of these references are sited in this first article by Holzgreve which you can read on the net). Note this is the same scientific community that the Hospital Information Service uses to support Albumin!!!!
1 Holzgreve W. et.al, Prenatal Diagnosis Using Fetal Cells Enriched from Maternal Blood, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Basel, Basel, Switzerland
( http://www.mef.hr/CMJ/3902/5-Holzgreve.htm
( http://salata.mef.hr/CMJ/3902/5-Holzgreve.htm
2 Holzgreve W. Will ultrasound-screening and ultrasound-guided procedures be replaced by non-invasive techniques for the diagnosis of fetal chromosome anomalies? [editorial]. Ultrasound Obstet Gynecol 1997;9:217-9.
3 Schmorl G. Pathologisch-anatomische Untersuchungen über Publereklampsie. Leipzig:Vogel; 1893.
4 Sargent IL, Johansen M, Chau S, Redman CWG.Clinical experience: isolating trophoblasts from maternal blood. Ann N Y Acad Sci 1994;731:154-61.
5 Attwood HD, Park WW. Embolism to the lungs by trophoblast. J Obstet Gynaecol Br Commonw 1960; 68:611-7.
6 Henderson KG, Shaw TE, Barret IJ, Telenius AHP, Wilson RD, Kalousek DK. Distribution of mosaicism in human placentae. Hum Genet 1996;97:650-4.
7 Goldberg JD, Wohlferd MM. Incidence and outcome of chromosomal mosaicism found at the time of chorionic villus sampling. Am J Obstet Gynecol1997; 176:1349-53.
8 Covone AE, Johnson PM, Mutton D, Adinolfi M. Trophoblast cells in peripheral blood of pregnant women. Lancet 1984;2:841-3.
9 Covone AE, Kozman R, Johnson PM, Latt SA, Adinolfi M. Analysis of peripheral maternal blood samples for the presence of placental-derived cells using Y-specific probes and mAb H315. Prenat Diagn 1988;5:591-607.
10 Bertero MT, Camaschella C, Serra A, Bergui L, Caligaris-Cappio F. Circulating "trophoblast" cells in pregnancy have maternal genetic markers. Prenat Diagn 1988;8:588-90.
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12 Herzenberg LA, Bianchi DW, Schröder J, Cann HM, Iverson CM. Fetal cells in the blood of pregnant women: detection and enrichment by fluorescence-activated cell sorting. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1979;76:1453-5.
13 Schindler AM, Graf E, Martin-du-Pan R. Prenatal diagnosis of fetal lymphocytes in the maternal blood. Obstet Gynecol 1972;40:340-6.
14 Schröder J, de la Chappelle A. Fetal lymphocytes in maternal blood. Blood 1972;39:153-61.
15 Grosset L, Barelet V, Ordatchenko N. Antenatal fetal sex determination from maternal blood during pregnancy. Am J Obstet Gynecol 1974;120:60-3.
16 Sargent IL, Choo YS, Redman CWG. Isolating and analyzing fetal leukocytes in maternal blood. Ann N Y Acad Sci 1994;731:147-153.
17 Schröder J, Tilikainen A, de la Chappelle A. Fetal leucocytes in maternal circulation after delivery. Transplantation 1974;17:346-60.
18 Ciaranfi A, Curchod A, Odartchenko N. Post partum survival of fetal lymphocytes in the maternal blood. Schweiz Med Wochenschr 1977;107:134-8.
19 Bianchi DW, Zickwolf GK, Weil GJ, Sylvester S, Demaria MA. Male fetal progenitor cells persist in maternal blood for as long as 27 years postpartum. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1996;93:705-8.
20 Gänshirt D, Garritsen H, Miny P, Holzgreve W. Fetal cells in maternal circulation throughout gestation. Lancet 1994;343:1038-9.
21 Slunga Tallberg A, el Rifai W, Keinanen M, Ylinen K, Kurki T, Klinger K, et al. Maternal origin of nucleated erythrocytes in peripheral venous blood of pregnant women. Hum Genet 1995;96:53-7.
22 Slunga Tallberg A, el Rifai W, Keinanen M, Ylinen K, Kurki T, Klinger K, et al. Maternal origin of transferrin receptor positive cells in venous blood of pregnant women. Clin Genet 1996;49:196-9.
23 Holzgreve W, Ghezzi F, Di Naro E, Maymon E, Gänshirt D, et al. Feto-maternal cell traffic is significantly perturbed in preeclampsia. Obstet Gynecol. In press 1998.
24 Bianchi DW, Flint AF, Pizzimneti MF, Knoll JHM, Latt SA. Isolation of fetal DNA from nucleated erythrocytes in maternal blood. Proc Natl Acad SciUSA 1990;8:3279-83.
25 Miltenyi S, Müller W, Weichel W, Radbruch A. High gradient magnetic cell seperation with MACS. Cytometry 1990;11:231-8.
26 Gänshirt-Ahlert D, Burschyk M, Garritsen HS, Helmer L, Miny P, Horst J, et al. Magnetic cell
sorting and the transferrin receptor as potential means of prenatal diagnosis from maternal blood. Am J Obstet Gynecol 1992;166:1350-5.
27 Elias S, Price J, Dockter M, Wachtel S, Tharapel A, Simpson JL, et al. First trimester prenatal
diagnosis of trisomy 21 in fetal cells from maternal blood. Lancet 1992;340:1033.
28 Bianchi DW, Mahr A, Zickwolf GK, Houseal TW, Flint AF, Klinger KW. Detection of fetal cells with 47,XY,+21 karyotype in maternal peripheral blood. Hum Genet 1992;90:368-70.
29 Gänshirt-Ahlert D, Börejesson-Stoll R, Burschyk M, Dohr A, Gerritsen HSP, Helmer E, et al. Detection of fetal trisomies 21 and 18 from maternal blood using triple gradient and magnetic cell sorting. Am J Reprod Immun 1993;30:194-201.
30 Sekizawa A, Kimura T, Sasaki M, Nakamura S, Kobayashi R, Sato T. Prenatal diagnosis of Duchenne muscular dystrophy using a single fetal nucleated erythrocyte in maternal blood. Neurology 1996;46:1350-3.
31 Cheung MC, Goldberg JD, Kan YW. Prenatal diagnosis of sickle cell anaemia and thalassaemia by analysis of fetal cells in maternal blood. Nat Genet1996;14:264-8.
32 Lo YMD, Patel P, Wainscoat JS, Sampietro M,Gillmer MDG, Fleming KA. Prenatal determination by DNA amplification from maternal peripheral blood. Lancet 1989;ii:1363-5.
33 Lo YMD, Patel P, Baigent CN, Gillmer MD, Chamberlain P, Travi M, et al. Prenatal sexdetermination from maternal peripheral blood using the polymerase chain reaction. Hum Genet 1993;90:483-8.
34 Camaschella C, Alfarano A, Gottardi E, Travi M, Primignani P, Cappio FC, et al. Prenatal diagnosis of fetal hemoglobin Lepore-Boston disease on maternal peripheral blood. Blood 1990;75:2102-6.
35 Lo YMD, Bowell PJ, Selinger M, Mackenzie IZ, Chamberlain P, Gillmer MDG, et al. Prenatal determination of fetal RhD status by analysis of peripheral blood of rhesus negative mothers. Lancet1993;341:1147-1148.
36 Handyside AH, Delhanty JDA. Preimplatation genetic diagnosis: strategies and suprises. Trends Genet 1997;13:270-5.
37 Sekizawa A, Watanabe A, Kimura T, Saito H,Yanaihara T, Sato T. Prenatal diagnosis of the fetal RhD blood type using a single nucleated erythrocyte from maternal blood. Obstet Gynecol 1996;87:501-5.
38 Savion S, Carp H, Shepshelovich J, Irlin J, Kostykov M, Fein A, et al. Use of antibodies against the human antigen of erythroblasts for the detection of nucleated erythrocytes in the maternal circulation. Biol Neonate 1997;71:126-30.
39 Zheng YL, Zhen DK, Demaria MA, Berry SM, Wapner RJ, Evans MI, et al. Search for the optimal fetal cell antibody: results of immunophenotyping studies using flow cytometry. Hum Genet 1997;100:35-42.
40 Von Koskul H, Gahmberg N. Fetal erythroblasts from maternal blood identified with 2,3-biphosphate (BPG) and in situ hybridization (ISH) using Y-specific probes. Pren Diagn 1995;15:149-54.
41 Hengstschlager M, Bernaschek G. Fetal cells in the peripheral blood of pregnant women express thymidine kinase: a new marker for detection. FEBS Lett 1997;404:299-302.
42 Hall JM, Adams S, Williams S, Rehse MA, Layton TJ, Molesh DA. Purification of fetal cells from maternal blood using an avidin-biotin immunoaffinity column. Ann N Y Acad Sci 1994;731:115-27.
43 Steele CD, Wapner RJ, Smith JB, Haynes MK, Jackson LG. Prenatal diagnosis using fetal cells isolated from maternal peripheral blood: a review. Clin Obstet Gynecol 1996;39:801-13.
44 Sitar G, Manenti L, Farina A, Lanati V, Mascheretti P, Forabosco A, et al. Characterization of the biophysical properties of human erythroblasts as a preliminary step to the isolation of fetal erythroblasts from maternal blood for non invasive prenatal genetic investigation. Heamatologica 1997;82:5-10.
45 Wachtel SS, Sammons D, Manley M, Wachtel G, Twitty G, Utermohlen J, et al. Fetal cells in maternal blood: recovery by charge flow separation. Hum Genet 1996;98:162-6.
46 Lo YMD, Morey AL, Wainscoat JS, Fleming Culture of fetal erythroid cells from maternal peripheral blood. Lancet 1994;344:264-5.
47 Valerio D, Aiello R, Altieri V, Malato AP, Fortunato A, Canazio A. Culture of fetal erythroid progenitor cells from maternal blood for non-invasive prenatal genetic diagnosis. Prenat Diagn 1996;16:1073-82.
48 Karine Mignon-Godefroy, Guillet J, Butor C. Solid phase cytometry for detection of rare events. Cytometry 1997;27:336-44.
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50 Bianchi DW, Williams JM, Sullivan LM, Hanson FW, Klinger KW, Shuber AP. PCR quantitation of fetal cells in maternal blood in normal and aneuploid pregnancies. Am J Hum Genet 1997;61:822-9.
51 Thilaganathan B, Meher-Homji NJ, Nicolaides KH. Blood transferrin receptor expression in chromosomally abnormal fetuses. Pren Diagn 1995;15: 282-4.
52 Reisenberger K, Egarter C, Kapiotis S, Sternberger B, Gregor H, Husslein P. Transfer of erythropoeitin across the placenta perfused in vitro. Obstet Gynecol 1997;89:738-42.
53. New Blood Test Can Uncover fetal Defects, Associated Press, New York Times, 1996, November 4 : A16 (col. 4)
hawk
Had Enough

Thank you Maximus for this well-presented post.
When the borg says
Jehovah never feels pressured by time to reveal his secrets prematurely.
I cannot understand why God would have a "secret" about how blood is to be or not to be administered in medical instances.
Why if it was such an important issue with Him, why would He allow so many of His faithful worshipers to die because of the first "secret" He revealed, of absolutely no blood, only to change it recently to allow certain fractions which would now save lives?
What possible reason would a loving God have to wait for several decades and watch thousands of His faithful worshipper die, before He decided to now reveal it was OK for life-saving fractions?
Were those who died because of not being allowed, by the "revealed secret" of God to the FDS, to receive a necessary blood transfusion, of no consequence to God?
Is it OK that they died because God does not need to be pressured into revealing His new secret of allowed fractions until He's ready?
Or are we to be consoled by the explanation that if they die faithful to God, He will remember them in the resurrection?
Is that resurrection supposed to console children, husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, and so on who have lost a dear one too soon?
If it was because the FDS, being imperfect men, didn't get it right in the first place, why did God let that happen when it would be obvious to Him that this error was costing people their lives?
I can't believe a God of love was that needy of assurance of His worshippers dedication to Him that He needed to see thousands die to prove their faithfulness.
These are only the tip of the iceburg of questions I have (and I know I'm not alone).
Of course the answer is that the FDS claim of divine revelations to them in "new light" is completely pathetic, even if some of them sincerely believe this is God's way.
Yes as you said Maxiumus, their explanation is galling and patronizing, and it will be interesting to see how they try to doublespeak their way out of further exposure of their misrepresentation of themselves in this issue and in the issue of their stand on molesters in the congregations.
Had Enough
Anchor

<The twin-to-twin transfusion syndrome occurs when one twin always 'donates' blood to the other, because the communication between the two is unbalanced>
God allows twin to twin transfusion?
Somebody, please let the Governing Body know, because they are obviously not listening to God.
<Well then, when your or your loved one's life is on the line, maybe you can get your local WT Blood Nazis (aka Hospital Liaison Committee member) to explain the natural movement of red blood cells and white blood cells in these references: (P.S. - leukocytes = are a type of white blood cell, erythrocytes are immature red blood cells. Most of these references are cited in this first article by Holzgreve which you can read on the net). Note this is the same scientific community that the Hospital Information Service uses to support [acceptance of] Albumin!!!!>
Surely this "natural blood flow" is no secret with all these publications!
Hawk, this is breath-taking. You've got my total respect.
Anchor

GB Admits It Has No Answers, Blood

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