To those that believe in a god; Please help me believe

by AlmostAtheist 83 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AlmostAtheist

  Hey Gang,

  This isn't a debate-for-debate's sake thread. I enter with an informed but open mind. It would benefit me personally for reasons I'd rather not go into if I believed in a God. *Some* kind of God, any god will do. A Christian God, actually, would be the most useful, but any port in a storm, ya know?

  Below are some common "Why I believe there's a God" arguments and why I disagree with them. I'm not trying to short circuit anybody, just trying to skip to the meat of the discussion.

  So, please, have at me.

  I don't buy an argument from Intelligent Design, since the theory it runs on -- "everything is too complex to not have a Designer" -- would also require a Designer of the Designer of the Designer, etc. If I misunderstand that view, please correct me. And of course, just saying, "Well, it had to start *somewhere*" doesn't work.

  I don't buy the "I feel Jesus in my heart, that's how I know it's real" argument because so many people feel that way about their religion, even conflicting religions. Everybody that's serious about their religion -- even the 9/11 pilots -- "feel" their god in their hearts. When I was a JW, *I* felt it. If you still feel that's a valid argument, please explain why.

  I can't accept that the Bible is from God, since it has so many contradictions that you can only explain through scriptural sleight of hand. "God is Love", but 'God commands the Israelites to kill babies and not feel sorry about it', that sort of thing.

  Those are only reasons to not actively believe in a god, they don't actually preclude the existence of one.

  I feel that the absence of any sort of divine intervention in situations where innocent humans are suffering and screaming and what not is a reason to actively believe that there is not a god. I don't buy that "it's just life, it's not god's fault" because if I had God's alleged power, I sure would swoop in and stop major suffering. You lost your job? Tough, you'll get another one. I can buy that. But your neighbor sneaks into your house and slits your throat while you sleep? Nope, if I were God I'd stop him. If you have a good argument against that, please post it.

  And while the mechanics of every little bit of evolution may be up for debate, I'm comortable that life evolves. If you have serious scholarly refutation of that, please post it. Just posting "I can't see how [complex thing x] could possibly have just evolved" isn't an argument, you're just saying you don't know. But if you're comfortable that you can prove that life could not have arisen without divine help, please post it.

  Of course, there's still the question of where the blob of stellar what's-its came from prior to the alleged Big Bang. Did God create that, and then let it all happen from there? Or has the blob always existed eternally? You can't reasonably say it couldn't have always existed, since most believers will say that God has always existed. Point being, if you can say God just always existed, we can as easily assume that the blob has always existed. Again, if you have a refutation for that, please post it.

  Thanks for you help and your patience!

  Dave
• 

  Sunchild

  Here's a bit of irony for you. I'm as much a Christian believer as you're ever going to meet, and only a year-and-a-half ago, I felt a lot like you. For that reason, the only honest response I can give you is this: I don't think it's really possible for a human being to convince another human being of God's existence. For me, it took an event so profound that I had no other choice but to explore the path laid before me; it was the right time and circumstance for God to make His presence known.

  I became a Christian because when I was very, very close to committing suicide, I felt something urging me to pray to a God I no longer believed in. I gave in to it since I had nothing else to lose and no other way out other than death. In the moment that I did, life became worth living again. Given my mental state beforehand, this was nothing less than a miracle. Call it what you will, but I chose to call it that, and I'm glad I did.

  Since I don't know what your life is like (and I'm not the Almightly, either), I can't tell you what it would take to make you believer. Maybe it's just not in the cards for you; maybe you're still waiting, or God is.

  Whatever happens, though, good luck.

  ~Rochelle.
• 

  jehovahhunter

  If you are really looking for help, I know someone who could answer your questions. Im not sure what bible you are reading from to find contradictions...but over 300 proficies in the old testiment were proven in the new....a simple explanation...you couldnt even flip a coin and get 10 out of 10....300 proficies 300 came true...

  i am not a jw....i am a child of God. I believe that He died on the cross and rose again. I believe He has washed away my sin...not covered it up but completely washed it away.
• 

  SheilaM

  I wonder sometimes then I look at the my grandbaby and think of her birth and that of my children, I see her use her left hand like my Mom and pat me on my leg just like my Mom, a person that died and she never met....then I know for sure there is a God, tuned out of earth but a God
• 

  gespro

  Hi Almost-

  You are at a good age [I wish I knew the truth about the 'troof' at 35]. My tool gathering ended around 32 and I awoke one day to realize I had arrived. Up to that day life to me was a rehearsal. Everything was practice and I was simply gathering tools for the day I would be a mature man...but, I digress...

  After dealing with a 'cult' with everybody else worrying about 'my' spiritualty, I've learned that this is a very personal thing. None of their business! We individually have to find him...and you will. I'm convinced He's there. I went a long time without prayer and I've recently rediscovered it.

  I pray for the anger to be taken away from me, that I won't be too depressed where I'm totally debilitated and unable to function. I pray that I may be successful in doing the simplest things like taking care of basic needs, dealing with people, being on time, etc. You get the picture...

  Believe me, I couldn't blame you for how you feel. I've been there. And it is a process.You'll get to where you need to be, in time. What's helped me was some of Randall Watters' info. His newsletter, some of the tapes he has, has given me food for thought. IT's taken awhile [a couple of years] but I'll say again that it is a process...

  My you have success in what you are looking for...

  gespro
• 

  groovycat.

  What is the point? Really?

  In this day and age, why do people still feel they have to believe in a god? I can see why people were roped into it a few thousand years ago when there were no reasonable scientific explanations for even the smallest of things, but there is a much better understanding of things now. Something as simple as an earthquake, how would you explain that if you had no understanding of the science? The earth moving below you, terrifying and awe inspiring to say the least, what kind of supreme power could have caused that? He must have been angry with us!

  Why would there be a god? To create us and leave us to kill ourselves? What would be the point in creating all of this, just so that he could sit back and watch every wrongful death, human suffering and everything else that?s wrong with the world, take place? What is the point? Freewill? What about the Asian Tsunami, what was the point of letting that happen? And people TURN to god in times like this (I can?t believe it), yeah that?s right, turn and worship a god that by definition of your belief, had the power to control the events that just killed hundreds of thousands of people. Compassionate. Bull sh*t.

  And even if you still believe there is a god, which one do you choose? Which faith do you choose? Which religion do you choose? There are so many out there, and everyone is the right one, so how are you ever meant to choose? You could never study each one sufficiently to make an informed decision. If there is a god, why didn?t he just give us a definite single path that we could all follow, harmonise under and worship him as he is so desperately in need for us to do (insecure to the Max)? What?s that, the Bible? So maybe we don?t adhere to a religion, but follow what the Bible tells us? Which one then?

  Im not sure what bible you are reading from

  Couldn?t have put it better my self.

  If there is or was ever a god, we are now so far removed from the ability to believe in him that he has completely lost the plot.

  It?s time to wake up and smell the stench in the ether people.
• 

  czarofmischief

  Prayer works for me. I attempt something without prayer, I might succeed, I might not. I pray first, and even if I fail I learn more from it. It helps harmonize everything.

  But I cannot convince anybody of anything. You have to seek him out yourself. Good luck.

  If you want to know how I philosophically resolve (for I must always do so) the problem of suffering and evil, here:

  The argument that "If I were God I would swoop in and save everybody" is a fallacy. If you are going to presuppose a merciful God, then you have to have faith in life after death. If you are going to deny him, then you have to say that terrible things are just a cosmic burp, a conflict with forces beyond our control or ability to predict. Either way, death is not the worst thing in life.

  From my point of view, yes, the tsunamis were terrible, a horrible loss of life - but I believe that those souls are not lost, but moving on (mostly) to a higher and better place. You can either accept that or not - but the point is that God is not going to abandon anyone. Death is the inevitable result of being alive in this universe. Sooner or later everyone dies, and most people die painful, agonizing deaths. Whether it is half-asleep in your own feces in a nursing home or overcome by smoke inhalation - we all die and it is almost always bad, bad, bad.

  But through love, we can ameliorate the worst of the effects of life, and thus we learn how precious and important it is to love. And through faith, we can endure the worst deaths, confident that the lessons we learn will come in useful. And we hope in a better life after this one, for all.

  Besides, if you were going to ask god to stop your neighbor from cutting your throat, that would imply a certain degree of faith and trust in him and his ability to choose correct actions for you, as well as your neighbor.It would hardly be fair to ask God to stop your neighbor from what we shall call "sin" and let YOU off the hook. Where would you and God draw the agreement lines? Would you be willing to let Him stop you from say, fornication, if He knew that it would harm somebody? Would you be able to accept His judgement and not question it? Or would you require a written statement regarding your intended action and the reason he stopped you? Can you see why the "God should intervene" argument is hypocritical, except for a truly sinless man? I don't think anybody really wants to give up their "pet sins" enough to accept that level of Divine intervention.

  And finally, what if God DID intervene sometimes? How would you know if he prevented this earthquake from happening? How do you know that he DOESN'T prevent hundreds of similar quakes every day? The presence of suffering and evil in and of itself proves nothing regarding God's existence, or even his benevolence.

  CZAR
• 

  AlmostAtheist

  We're off to a rousing start! Thank you, everyone, for your participation so far.

  I'll respond, but please don't take me as argumentative. See it more as exploring. A five-year-old asks, "Why is the sky blue?" not to challenge you, presupposing you don't have a good answer. He genuinely assumes that you know, and just wants to know too. That's me. I'm assuming you have good reasons for believing and I am just trying to determine what they are. In discussing them, I am most decidely *not* trying to convince you that there is no god. I am trying to get some reasoning in front of me that I haven't seen before on the topic.

  Thanks again, and here we go:

  Sunchild: You wrote, "I became a Christian because when I was very, very close to committing suicide, I felt something urging me to pray to a God I no longer believed in." Firstly, I'm very glad you found a way to avoid suicide! The despair that brings you to that point is maddening, that it's in your past now is great. Congratulations! I've always felt that personal experience is one of those things that's impossible to argue with. "But I've *seen* it!" There's little you can say to that. Considering all the things I've seen and felt in my life that I now know were not what I thought they were, I just don't trust personal experience. My own, much less anyone else's. This seems to fall into the "I feel Jesus in my heart" category. I'm glad it works for you, but it isn't something that could convince someone else.

  jehovahhunter: Yes, I'm seriously looking for help. "I know someone who could answer your questions" - Who? PM me, if you'd rather. All Bibles carry essentially the same message, but if it matters, I'm reading the NIV. The "prophecies" of the Bible don't impress me as much as they used to. For instance, the Messianic prophecies. There are over a hundred prophecies pointing to Jesus: born of a virgin, born in Bethlehem, clothes divided up by lots, no broken bones, etc. Except when you actually read these alleged "prophecies", they aren't talking about future events at all. They're just part of discussions on other topics. But somebody reached back, found every verse that has the word "He" in it, and found some way to apply it to Jesus. Other prophecies are similarly vague, or when they are specific, have been found to have likely been written after the events took place.

  I don't want this to become a "Why I believe the Bible" thread, though I see some validity in saying, "But [x] from the Bible could only have been placed there by God, thus proving he exists!" Prophecies, scientific truths unknown at the time of the Bible's writing, miracles witnessed by hundreds, that sort of thing. If you personally have something very solid about why you believe the Bible proves that God exists, please post it.

  SheilaM: "I see [my granddaughter] use her left hand like my Mom and pat me on my leg just like my Mom, a person that died and she never met" I know what you mean, I see my kids do things that my parents and in-law's do. The way they smile or the way they look when they're concentrating. There's no way my 3-month-old has learned and copied my father-in-law's mannerisms, yet there they are! But how does that indicate to you that there's a god?

  gespro: "I'm convinced He's there." What convinced you? I'm sure it wasn't one big thing, but was there a top five list of things that really woke you up to belief in a god? I'll look into Randall Watter's info, his bio is here: http://www.freeminds.org/history/watters.htm

  groovycat.: "Why do people still feel they have to believe in a god?" You make some good points. Nobody today prays to Thor to stop thundering from the heavens, it is accepted that thunder and lightning are naturally occurring events. Nobody says a prayer to Molech over their crops, or if they do, you can bet they still fertilize and water them. So the only things left for a god to do for us is create us and our universe. If evolution and big bang-esque views become as widely accepted as thunder and lightning, I wonder what god there will be left?

  We're off to a good start, thanks everyone!

  Dave
• 

  SYN

  Don't know if this will help (I doubt it), but I've come to believe that God is a manifestation of plain old human selfishness. There are no athiests in a foxhole, you might say. And HE (usually it's a HE) also ties in very nicely to our primate centers of power and dominance in our brains. We can only really think in terms of hierarchies of power, and God is at the top - it all makes sense, if you're a primate. Easy! Maybe you should try Zen. Or, as a true Zen master should say, you should realize that to try Zen, you must not try Zen.
• 

  AlmostAtheist

  Czar: Thanks for taking me seriously, I appreciate the time and thought it took to record your views. If I may, I'd like to respond to them and hopefully we can discuss it as much as possible. (There comes a point where honest men disagree [or so I'm told. If I ever meet one, I'll ask him] but hopefully we can accomplish something before that point.)

  The argument that "If I were God I would swoop in and save everybody" is a fallacy. If you are going to presuppose a merciful God, then you have to have faith in life after death. If you are going to deny him, then you have to say that terrible things are just a cosmic burp, a conflict with forces beyond our control or ability to predict. Either way, death is not the worst thing in life.

  I don't think death is the problem, suffering is the problem. For instance, if an innocent woman were being raped right in front of you and you could stop it with no possibility of injury to yourself and no cost, you couldn't help but jump in and save her. Yet virtually every god-belief describes a being that knows everything, is all-powerful, yet does nothing. Yes, by our nature, we die. But "painful, agonizing deaths" are simply not a necessary part of it. I can't agree that it's fallacious to think if I had more power, I'd do more good, and so if I was all powerful, I would do great good. (Preventing all rapes -- that one act -- would be huge)

  And through faith, we can endure the worst deaths, confident that the lessons we learn will come in useful.

  A newborn has a malformed heart. She screams when she's not on painkillers, and she dies when she's 3 weeks old. What did she learn? A child is born, and is immediately damaged in an accident. He's a vegetable until he's 14 when he succumbs to pneumonia. What did he learn? I can't buy the "we learn on the earth what we use later in heaven" argument since so many never get to learn anything.

  Besides, if you were going to ask god to stop your neighbor from cutting your throat, that would imply a certain degree of faith and trust in him and his ability to choose correct actions for you, as well as your neighbor.It would hardly be fair to ask God to stop your neighbor from what we shall call "sin" and let YOU off the hook. Where would you and God draw the agreement lines? Would you be willing to let Him stop you from say, fornication, if He knew that it would harm somebody?.

  I think my lost job/slit throat comparison fits this. No, I wouldn't imagine myself as God correcting every little thing. If you can't get good TV reception, call your cable guy, not God. But there are lines that God himself should be able to draw between right and wrong without impinging on free-will. And of course, I'm not asking to be 'let off the hook'. If I try to rape somebody, somebody should stop me. But it won't be God. That's why I don't get it. We are supposed to be his creation, and yet we're the ones that can't just sit by and watch pointless suffering. If we see it, we step in, even if it means risking our own lives. God would put nothing at risk, and yet does nothing. Your point is "Ok, but to what degree?" It's a valid point, but I think we could agree that "murder for fun" is not acceptable. If you knew I was going to bash in somebody's skull with a bat because I want to see how it feels, you'd stop me. But God won't. Far from 'proving nothing', I think that proves everything about God's existence, or at least his apathy.