Rationalism and religion

Narkissos

I've not been too good at creating topics thus far, but for my 1000th post (in case you wouldn't notice ) I'll try again.

We often oppose reason (ratio) and belief, as if those were mutually exclusive. I think they are not.

Reason always works from presuppositions. These are the data brought into our mind through language, by education, experience, influence, and so forth. Religious belief (as any kind of belief) may be initially part of them; we can bring it in or exclude it out later.

Now if we provisionally define rationalism as the logical, consistent, predictable way one thinks and acts out of a given set of presuppositions, we could conclude that some religious people are highly rational.

To me the JWs are a caricatural example of this. From their presuppositions (1. There is a God. 2. He reveals Himself in the Protestant Bible. 3. The Bible is correctly interpreted by the WTBTS Inc.) they have built a highly rational world: every question has its answer (although it may change); no mystery; no twilight; no gray zone; no hesitation; no ignorance. Everything in their lives is meant to be a logical sequence of their presuppositions. The only problem they admit, characteristically, is "imperfection" -- or is it the "real", the "unconscious", the "repressed", iow the "irrational", moaning and struggling under the overrational structure?

There may be something as a "gullible rationalism", within and without religion.

What do you think?

MerryMagdalene

I think I'm not smart enough to respond to this post... but I am interested in what you say, even so, and am looking forward to other replies because I am seeking a greater understanding of what always seemed to me to be pseudo-logic in the teachings of the Org.

HAPPY 1000 !!!!!!!

LittleToe

14 topics and 1000 posts, all within the first year.
Not bad going, new Jedi

Guillable Rationalism?
Now there's an interesting definition.
I'll just quickly put down a marker to state that not all religion is bible-based (since your Topic title is broad based), neither is most non-religion

You make an good point regarding presuppositions.
I think that the identifying and objectifying, of these, goes a long way towards more accurate rationalization.

Max Divergent

More a pseudo-rationalism maybe? Rule or formula following more than a seeking out of reason perhaps?

Midget-Sasquatch

Hi Narc,

IMHO you've touched on one of the characteristics of the JW belief system that has made it so appealing to many dubs since it just "made so much sense" to them. The rationalistic (to varying degrees) form of argumentation I think is a legacy (albeit paltry and full of holes now) from CTR.

Excellent point with presuppositions as well....IMHO therein lies the achilles heel of the WTBS.

I think that to a degree any sort of belief system has to have some pattern resembling logic or rational argument so that a personal can cling to that...easier than if all the ideas were glaringly baseless.

AlmostAtheist

You're right, you have to have some facts before you can reason, and once you've listed something in your fact file, it's hard to talk yourself into re-evaluating it.

Did you ever see "Galaxy Quest"? It's a spoof on Star Trek, and how all the actors are famous only in the fact that they were on that show, not that they were great actors or went on to any other great things. There's a part in it where some die-hard fans want to discuss with the "captain" some minutia about the control mechanism built into his chair. They contrast the controls usage in one show with the same control in another show. They want him to resolve the contradiction.

That 'quest' world was real to them, and any excuse he offered would have been acceptable. Real Star Trek actors have spun tales to explain away supposed contradictions in their show, to the satisfaction of fans.

Once you've defined your universe -- Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, or Jehovah's Bringin' Somethin' Better -- you'll tend to believe anything that supports it.

Once I finally got my head around that, I was able to start the process of breaking free. (But I still believe in Hobbits, and nobody's tellin' me otherwise!)

-Dave

jst2laws

Narkissos, Good way to celebrate your 1000th post. Yes, I agree with you that within the bounds of common presuppositions religion can be rational. Many of them are, which may be what attract us to the WT. They seemed to debunk the irrational beliefs of other 'religions' making a plausible effort to dispute their teachings with: 1 reason supported by 2 proofs. However, when the presuppositions are challenged we find the limits of rationality in religion. Religion has a different "way of knowing" from secularist. It's way of knowing is based on divine revelation which makes it inerrant and unchangeable. When new evidence is presented that seems to contradict the 'revelation' then the evidence must be set aside or explained away. After all, God cannot be found untrue. And before Little Toe picks up his marker again I will admit as he says:

not all religion is bible-based

I think that means some religion is willing to be flexible in their "way of knowing". That's cool. But not a popular thought in the US. Jst2laws

Terry

Congratulations on your 1000th post! Great topic.

I believe that being rational is using our mind to explore reality for its benefical possibilities to create for ourselves the best life possible.

Naturally this leads to a corollary: Avoid unreality!

Wishful thinking, mind over matter, mysticism, group-think all lead to a fantasy instead of reality.

So, for me, rationalism is the only medicine that can cure-all.

Let's just think about it for a moment!

If you are NOT rational what happens?

1.You unfocus your mind.

2.You suspend conscious thought and lapse into a kind of trance

3.You embrace a blindness; a refusal to see. It is not ignorance, but, refusal to know.

4.You live by the opinions of others. You serve the cause of a group. You sacrifice yourself for the "greater good".

5.You spurn reality as a standard and embrace a mythos in its place.

What does rationality bring?

1.Recognition that existence really exists and operates by cause and effect

2.Nothing can alter what is real and nothing takes precedence over perceiving reality.

3.The human mind is one's only judge of values and the only guide of action; reason is absolute and permits no compromise.

4.A concession to anything irrational invalidates our consciousness and turns us to faking reality.

5.Faking reality is not a short-cut to knowledge, but, a substitute that demands FAITH (the most powerful destroyer of the rational mind).

6.Recognition that embracing anything mystical is an invitiation to replace reality with wishful thinking and a lapse into the annhilation of our identiy.

RELIGION is group-think. RELIGION is a collective. A collective demands that we lose what is most precious to us, our individuality. A collective demands we debase our self-worth by sacrficing our mind and actions to the group.

Is there any Christian religion that doesn't feed us the idea that we are worthless? That we are weak, sinful, imperfect and deserving of death? That we can only gain favor UNDESERVEDLY?

Religion is a destroyer of self, of that which is unique in man: his identity. Your identity as YOU must be replaced with a phoney clone in the image and likeness of the group leader. Why? You are not worthy! You must die! You must start all over and be born again by giving up your own self, your own unique identity and plunge into group identity and group slavery FOR THE COMMON GOOD.

Is there anything that can free a person thus enslaved?

Yes!

Reclaim your own identity by reclaiming your rational mind.

Remember: your mind is your only protection against enslavement to a group.

A rational mind is not a natural thing. It is a skill one must acquire through toil and dedication to learning, testing, proving and rejecting what is false. REALITY is the only standard.

The number one reason why Jehovah's Witnesses fail the test of reality is because they substitute THE UNDERSTANDING of the mystical elite for their own rational mind. They are not allowed to think for themselves!!

Death of identity is death indeed!

jst2laws

Terry,

Some interesting thoughts. For the most part I agree with you, especially your comments about rationalism. However, the original post by Narkissos was graciously acknowledging at least a "gullible rationalism" in religion, which I recognize as well. The issue is their rationalism is contained within the bounds of many 'presuppositons' which most (except Little Toe) will not challenge rationally.

As to your assessment of religion in general I agree. Yet, many people really NEED religion in their lives. One can not deal with their need by exposing the flaws in their "way of knowing" or by debunking their beliefs by blowing away their persuppositons with facts. You have to help them reduce their NEED.

Jst2laws

LittleToe

Steve:

I think that means some religion is willing to be flexible in their "way of knowing". That's cool. But not a popular thought in the US.

That's an interesting observation.
Religion (in general) seems to be reasonably eclectic, over here.

I was more specifically relating to non-bible-based religion, though.

Excellent rejoiner to Terry's points, incidentally.
As you rightly point out, not everyone can take having their worldview crumble so radically.
Meanwhile, why rain on their parade?

Rationalism and religion

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