Rationalism and religion

by Narkissos 72 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Terry

  Hi just2laws! EXCELLENT POINT! You say: "As to your assessment of religion in general I agree. Yet, many people really NEED religion in their lives. One can not deal with their need by exposing the flaws in their "way of knowing" or by debunking their beliefs by blowing away their persuppositons with facts. You have to help them reduce their NEED."

  Jst2laws

  ________________________________________________________________________________

  The NEED stems from FEAR.

  Advertising executives know the importance of creating a NEED in the potential customer. The religious mystic uses the same tactic. Religious propaganda creates a need for religion by filling the world with (imaginary) terrors.

  Jw's always begin with the false dichotomy of rampant wickedness and ultimate destruction contrasted with the Paradise alternative. The sales pitch consists of either/or

  Do you want to be destroyed along with the wicked? OR,

  Do you want to live perfectly in peace and paradise? Duh!

  The product being sold depends on how well the customer FEARS the alternative.

  Hell was invented for just such a reason.

  The invisible world of angels and demons and spirit attack was invented to engender FEAR.

  Until a person who is swallowed up by religion realizes that the Boogeyman in the closet is just an old hat and raincoat--they won't stop smothering themselves under the blankets of religious "protectionism".

  RUTHERFORD was__almost__right about one thing. Religion is a snare and a PROTECTION racket. First they scare you to death and then they protect you from what they are scaring you with!

  The delusion that we have these mystical make-believe alternatives to real life is the lie. Once you recognize that no belief system can grant you escape from natural death or give you everlasting life in Paradise---you can free yourself from the false choices leading to such an embrace.

  The job of RELIGION is to frighten you and offer you comfort from the fear. That's it. That is all there is. In the process you become the slave to an elite group that grows fat off of your slave labor as you "earn" your way into heaven or paradise through your good works!

  THE NEED you speak of is what must be addressed. It is an illusory escape. It is an EVASION of reality.

  Religion is the disease. Thinking is the cure.
• 

  LittleToe

  Terry:

  The NEED stems from FEAR.

  That's a huge generalisation.
  Most people just go because their pappy went...
• 

  Terry

  Terry:

  The NEED stems from FEAR.

  That's a huge generalisation.
  Most people just go because their pappy went...

  LittleToe, and your statement ISN'T a huge generalization? (Most people go because.....)

  Religion sells relief from.............what?

  (Anybody? Anybody?)

  Religion peddles relief from what THEY tell you is your fate if you don't come aboard.

  What is that fate? Is it Armageddon destruction? Is it Hellfire? Is it purgatory? Is it demonic attack?

  If you were correct about why people go to church there would be no best selling LEFT BEHIND SERIES and no JW would ever find a convert and nobody would faint at a showing of the Exorcist.

  Religious people are filled with fears! They tremble at the idea of the "last days". They look over their shoulder for evil influences. They see Satan behind everything that isn't their brandname.

  Religious people are among the most paranoid of all living creatures! Jews see anti-Semitism in every nook and cranny. Muslims see the Great Satan in America. Christians see the universe in terms of black and white; US vs THEM and it ain't a tea party they see in THEM.

  FEAR is the product of religion. RELIEF is the medicine that is peddled. RELIGIOUS identity is the rabbit's foot of comfort.

  If that is a HUGE generalization I'm open to refutation.
• 

  myelaine

  The delusion that we have these mystical make-believe alternatives to real life is the lie. Once you recognize that no belief system can grant you escape from natural death or give you everlasting life in Paradise---you can free yourself from the false choices leading to such an embrace.
  

  Terry,

  You seem positive that there is no everlasting life in paradise, how did you rationalize this to yourself? Was it through emotion(fear), or reality?What is your reason for disbelief?

  michelle
• 

  LittleToe

  Terry:

  Steve Wrote: Yet, many people really NEED religion in their lives.

  Terry Wrote: The NEED stems from FEAR.

  I have nothing to prove. You're twisting the question from why people need religion to what religion produces.
  You have a further generalisation in your statements since not all subscribe to the "Left Behind" emotionalism.

  Anyother thing you don't seem to be able to discern is that human-beings are a paranoid bunch, period. It doesn't take religion to produce that. It rather seems to be an evolutionary thang
  Religion isn't the only mechanism that panders to that...
• 

  Terry

  myelaine says: Terry,

  You seem positive that there is no everlasting life in paradise, how did you rationalize this to yourself? Was it through emotion(fear), or reality?

  michelle

  _________________________________________________________________________________

  The greater the claim; the greater the proof required.

  Somebody tells us a beautiful story about a place called Paradise in which everbody lives forever in perfection. This is a HUGE claim. Where is the HUGE proof?

  As Carl Sagan once said, if somebody tells you there is a floating dragon in their garage, your first impulse is to want to go see it. When you get there, the person tells you the dragon is invisible to everybody but him! Do you believe him?

  Religion offers floating dragons like this (not to mention talking animals!). Where is the proof?

  I'll tell you where the proof is: IT IS INVISIBLE!

  This is the difference between a rational approach to wild claims and simply buying in to them because we want them to be true.
• 

  myelaine

  The greater the claim; the greater the proof required.
  

  Terry,

  I guess that is why God provided proof to all those that "bought into His claim" in the form of His Holy Spirit. (invisable to all that don't buy in to His claim) But because it is invisable does not mean that it is not real. If it(HS) was false and could be proven false no one, even the simplest person, would "buy into His claim". Ambivalence can not sit at the table with rationale.

  michelle

  p.s. the proof is IN the pudding
• 

  Annanias

  Narkiosis - Good(?) question. According to the classical Greeks, "Gullible Rationalism" is impossible. (Or, at the very least, oxymoronic). I enjoy these philosophical discussions because they get me to think, help me learn new ideas, and are inherently harmless. But they are also, ultimately, futile. I ran across this somewhat small book in the mathmatics section of the library that had been authored by the guy who invented the geodesic dome. (I am having a brain fart and cannot remember the guys name, but he is an unquestioned genius) The book was about 120 pages of small type that proved 1+1=2. I kid you not. I had to read this thing because why in the world would it possibly take 120+ pages to prove something as simply obvious as that. Well, the vast majority of the book was spent proving that unity in the universe is possible, after all, how can you add something to something of which it's already a part? Another portion of the book dealt with the mechanisms of combination, i.e. when 1 and 1 form a 2, does the universe remain? And so on. My point is that unless I apply a certain amount of "presupposition" to my life, I will "never be able to do nothing". Like the man with the truely "perfect" memory, every sound, every sight, every smell will unlock such a flood of remembrances that I will, for all practical purposes, be completely incapacitated.

  The same is true with the "reason" of religion. Do the JWs feel good about their presuppositions because they've accepted them, or have they accepted them because they make them feel good? Quantum physicists (as well as psychologists, curious bedfellow they) do agree that our perception of reality alters our reality. Maybe the reason the JW's have shut their brain off is because they have become completely satisfied with their presuppositions and that's as far as they want to take it. I say, "Good for them." The problem comes in when, like the citizens of the valley of the blind, they want to make me stop my babbling by removing these things I keep calling "eyes".
• 

  Cicatrix

  "FEAR is the product of religion. RELIEF is the medicine that is peddled. RELIGIOUS identity is the rabbit's foot of comfort.
  
  If that is a HUGE generalization I'm open to refutation."
  
  Hi Terry,
  I consider myself religious, but not in a traditional sense.
  
  I am not religious because I fear anything. I don't fear death (I have been in situations where I could have died, so I have had to face this). I'm not religious because I think it's a requirement for immortality. To be quite honest, I'm not yet convinced that there IS any such thing as immortality, but I'm not unconvinced, either. Neither do I feel any need to be immortal, or to "make my name" in the world, so to speak. What I am concerned about most is what can I do now to make a difference for future generations while I am here.
  
  I don't identify with your first two assertions, although I kinda like your last one;)Religious ritual is comforting to me, but more because it fosters a feeling of community. I'm sure you're going to say that I can find this same feeling elsewhere, and you are right, I have. But there is something indescribable about gathering together specifically for religious rituals.
  
  Your inference of persons needing religion due to fear interests me, because just this week, I read something by an author who stated that atheists don't believe because they fear a loss of autonomy. It amuses me that the same arguement has been used for and against the validation of religion.
  
  I am curious-why do you feel a need to convince others that religious belief is nothing but a fallacy?
  
  The dictionary defines religious as meaning "relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to {an acknowledged ultimate reality} or deity. (emphasis mine).
  
  Wouldn't that make a proponent of atheism religious, also?
• 

  Cicatrix

  "There may be something as a "gullible rationalism", within and without religion.
  
  What do you think?"
  
  I agree. We are what our minds/brains perceive the world to be. What's rational to one person may be totally irrational to someone else, or even to that same person when their perception of the world and their environment changes due to new experiences. Kind of "I think, therefore, I am."
  
  When I joined the JWs, I was sixteen. I wanted to save the world, and I wanted all my answers to be black and white. Due to my limited experience, the WTS seemed to offer all of the above. As I lived my life, and added new experiences, that view no longer continued to be valid.
  
  Now I'm not so fond of absolutes, lol.