Very good apologetics for honest seekers

by Shining One 122 Replies latest watchtower bible

Pistoff

This story....
A young man rents a boat from an old fisherman. Setting out, the old man refers him to his lifejacket.
If at some point later that day, the same young man was treading water and fighting for his life, the boat's down and the jacket... well?....
...all because he didn't listen to and believe the old fisherman....
In what way would he look at the old man when, at once, he came by and threw him another lifejacket?

Are we really supposed to make a logical conclusion from a bad analogy? Let's stick to the subject, and leave crappy analogies to Sh**ing One.
Shining One: you are a classic example of projection. BTW, you are wasting your time, writing ability, such as it is, and your arrogant attitude here. Why are you not writing for the WT, or some other fundamentalist rag?
John 3.18-19 explains quite nicely why people condemn themselves and Romans 1 describes how people are given over to their own way.

God may have used a simplistic metaphor here to describe why the world is filled with corruption: the pride of man: who thinks he needs not the creator and sustainer of life, the self-existent one. Do you can have it two ways, literal fundamentalism or figurative liberalism. You can cry and whine, judge God if all you like but in the final analysis all of your effort is for naught: If Christianity is true, you are eternally damned; if it is not true you are eventually just dead.

That's reality, not metaphor.
Reality? Like maybe Survivor, or the apprentice? Your arguments are almost as good as Donald Trump's.
literal fundamentalism or figurative liberalism.
What in the world does this mean? Literal fundamentalism is a redundancy; figurative liberalism seems to be a figment of your imagination.
Are you meaning liberalism in the (I need a)Rush Limbaugh mode, meaning next to Satan himself? Or in the real NT mode, where being liberal and ready to share is a christian quality? How is either one of these figurative?
1 a : representing by a figure or resemblance : EMBLEMATIC b : of or relating to representation of form or figure in art <figurative sculpture>
2 a : expressing one thing in terms normally denoting another with which it may be regarded as analogous : METAPHORICAL <figurative language> b : characterized by figures of speech <a figurative description>
I notice that when you are challenged to defend your statements, you resort to name calling.
Stick to logic and proof; we are all sick of invective, innuendo and false choices. We got enough at the local kingdom hall.
P
myelaine

dear pistoff, Are we really supposed to make a logical conclusion from a bad analogy? Let's stick to the subject, and leave crappy analogies to Sh**ing One. Well, thank you for your comment on my story, pistoff,. I would like to thank Terry as well, and mention to him that in my story there is no pushing out of the boat but if I was to change it I would put a girl in the water, she is wearing her lifejacket. She listened to the warning given by the old fisherman. She didn't see any pushing either. That young man is in the water drowning because he didn't heed a warning that would save his life. He is not passing blame. Terry, you were not there but you are quick to add details that simply aren't true, which, changes your view of the situation. michelle p.s. your details change everyone elses view of the situation too. You have, infact, changed the whole situation. The detail I added didn't change the situation, except in the fact that, if the old fisherman hadn't come along at the right moment, the young man wouldn't have died alone.
Shining One

I commend you on your analogy, Mylaine. The pair that are disputing your analogy continue to evade the point. Accepting responsibility is tough and it’s easier just to pass on the blame for their own condition. Blaming God and ignoring the gospel is nothing new, the excuses never end.
One of the clever things about Satan's use of a cult like the WBTS is that he smears bona-fide Christian churches so much that most that leave have nowhere to go. Nowhere is non-belief, bacchanalia, regression of morals and the desire to discourage everyone's faith.
Rex
Terry

1) God rules by divine providence.

2) Man knew the rules.

3) Man broke the rules.

4) Man chose to rebel, separating himself from God.

5) God covered man's sin.

6) God provided a savior for man.

7) He died for man to be reconciled: He took the hit.

8) YOU have a choice.

Yawn...more Sesame Street theology!
Let me try one more time. Try to grasp just one point.
Do you have any concept at all of what SIN is supposed to represent?
SIN represents the viewpoint of God toward humans when he cannot tolerate what they are doing.
Get that?
SIN is in the mind of the beholder: GOD.
GOD has an obsessive-compulsive disorder. When things aren't exactly the way he wants them to be there is a huge hissy fit. He screams: SIN!
Now, if you've grasped that I'll move on to yet one more point.
What is wrong with the world of mankind (if you accept the bible's version of things) comes EQUALLY from God's willingness to be offended by the actions of an inferior life form, and, from man's nature.
Did you read my words? Read them again.
Ask yourself a question:
"What if God chose not to be OFFENDED by Adam or Eve's failure to comply with his instructions?"
Why do I ask that? Because it is the reaction and the ability to be offended so thoroghly that CAUSES THE NEED FOR COVERING THE SIN. When I am offended I get over it. God never gets over anything.
He has to count the bodies as they pile up generation after generation! No big deal if millions perish; plenty more where they came from.
ALL GOD HAD TO DO when he was offended by Adam and Eve was to do exactly what he told them he would do: take their life in penalty. End of story.
But, no................nooooo..........noooooooooooooooo
Look at the list you gave me in the widdle box above. You nowhere get the issue straight. You can't even DEFINE the issue, so, it shouldn't surprise anybody that you can't cope with explaining it.
You have MISSED THE POINT!
1.IF god rules by Divine Providence (The foreseeing care and guidance of God or Nature over the creatures of the earth.) there was NO TEST involved at all. There was only a binary possibility:
A. Adam and Eve obey B. Adam and Eve disobey
God's foreseeing care and guidance would help them over the rough spots by ACTIVELY monitoring the human pair AS THEY ENGAGED in the process of exercising choice. God was ABSENT and appears later walking in the garden and is reportedly quite astonished at what has transpired! He wasn't around to give more information to them as the serpent began offering them suggestions and asking questions.
2. Man KNEW the rules? No! Man only knew that "in the day you eat of it you will surely die." And that doesn't say a thing about Adam's child-procreation or the hard-nosed penality on unborn children. Does it? NO! Adam didn't even begin to know the rules or how pissed God would be or the thousands of years of trouble that would BE ATTACHED to his rules. Did he? NO!
3.Man broke the rules? Eve and Adam broke the rule. Takes two to tango.
4.Man CHOSE to rebel; separating himself from God? Man did nothing like that. Adam and Eve wanted to BE LIKE god, their father. They were, at the worst, seeking equality or peerage and not separation, death and a legacy of doom for millions of their children. Let us get real.
5. God covered man's sin. Oh Baloney! Thousands of years later he tells a nomadic group to cut animal's throats and spill blood and he'll look the other way when they screw up. That's the law of Moses for the Jews. What did he give the greater population of the Earth? Nothing! He let them do what was right in their OWN eyes. When Jesus came, so we are told, God let him take the rap for everybody by being murdered. He GAVE his only begotten son; but, like any Indian-Giver, he took his son BACK AGAIN three days later. Some gift!
6.God provided a Savior for Man? You know what would work better? IF GOD DIDN'T HOLD A GRUDGE!!
7.He died for man to be reconciled? Oh, fluff! You and other christians are obsessed with death! Nothing is any good unless blood is spilled. Do you know how psychotic that is? Tribal lunacy and nothing more. I would expect a Voodoo priest to swallow this nonsense; but, no a member of a society that has an education.
8.You have a choice! Right. I choose sanity instead of fantasy wish-fulfillment. I wasted years of my life drooling over this sociopathic nonsense. It is all irrelevent. You are wasting your life; the ONLY life you have. It is a pity. A genuine pity.
Terry
Terry

Terry, you were not there but you are quick to add details that simply aren't true, which, changes your view of the situation.

Myelaine, there IS NO situation; it is MADE UP! Neither you nor I were in the Garden of Eden either.
In a hypothetical situation there is no "true", that only applies to REAL situations.
T.
Terry

Terry says:

I can therefore prove God does not represent Justice.
How?
What is the way the Bible identifies the mercy of God?
UNDESERVED (or unmerited) FAVOR is what his "grace" is. JUSTICE does not allow what is UNdeserved to be administered to the undeserving. That would be INjustice.
This story....
A young man rents a boat from an old fisherman. Setting out, the old man refers him to his lifejacket.
If at some point later that day, the same young man was treading water and fighting for his life, the boat's down and the jacket... well?....
...all because he didn't listen to and believe the old fisherman....
In what way would he look at the old man when, at once, he came by and threw him another lifejacket?
michelle

Michelle dearest, this is a False Analogy for many reasons.
1.Your little story has a "causeless" event. You left out how the young man ended up in the water.
2.The Old Man didn't do the responsible thing in the first place. It is maritime law around here that nobody goes on a boat without a life vest. Period. By not refusing to go out on the lake without the young man's compliance, the Old Man acted irresponsibly.
3.The "event" is the overturning of the boat (I can't really tell) OR, simply the young man in the water. Either way somebody or something CAUSED the event and that is the key to the analogy. Be that as it may, the Old Man cannot refuse to give the young man a life vest without being a murderer after the fact.
4.For the analogy to work, the young man has to be allowed to go produce children first and then come back and be allowed to drown. THEN, the Old Man has to let thousands of generations of (the young man's) children to drown too and only provide one little niche of them with life vests until, finally, the Old Man sends his own son TO DROWN and then declare that he's being even steven. (But, only if you believe!)
Do you see how nutty this is? Please, Michelle, give it up.
Terry
trevor

Terry I always enjoy your posts, they are like a cool breeze on a stiflingly hot day. Alas they will only be appreciated by those who are free to think and accept reason.
Anyone who is striving to support or make sense of a belief system based on faith, will close that part of their mind that would be able to accept what you are saying.
You told Michelle to ‘give it up.’ I think you will give it up long before those who are driven by faith. Because faith is never frustrated, it hopes all things, endures all things and is made stronger each time a faithful person shuts their mind to reason and logic.
myelaine

Dear Terry,
You said: Try to grasp just one point.
Do you have any concept at all of what SIN is supposed to represent?
SIN represents the viewpoint of God toward humans when he cannot tolerate what they are doing.
Get that?
SIN is in the mind of the beholder: GOD.
...and I will get back to that but first....
the facts of my story are.
1. young man wanted to go for a boat ride.
2. old/knowledgeable man states rules by refering to the vest.
3. young man chooses to ignore rules(did the devil make him do it or maybe you think it was the girl?)
4. young man sinks the boat
5. young man suffers the consequences
6. old fisherman is out on the water too, and rescues young man.
their is NO injustice in the old fisherman, none.
now, you said: SIN is in the mind of the beholder: GOD
but the Bible says GOD is separate from SIN, that is the point! and SIN represents mans viewpoint toward GOD. Which is why the gospel speaks of ONE who will cover that sin for all men(if you choose Him), so that at some point, being separate from sin ourselves(in God's eyes), we can be reunited with GOD.
michelle p.s. I think I can see why there were no children in Eden though, perhaps God still had to teach A & E the nuts and bolts of personal responsibility, before they started having and teaching little ones.
trevor

but the Bible says GOD is separate from SIN, that is the point! and SIN represents mans viewpoint toward GOD.

michelle
Don’t believe everything you read!
myelaine

trevor,
you're not the first to tell me this but thanx.
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1John 4:1)
For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope. (rom15:4)
michelle

Very good apologetics for honest seekers

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