What would you say?

carla

What would you say to someone who is going to be baptized soon, who does not understand the whole 1914 doctrine or even how it was arrived at? Good grief, isn't there a test or something before they baptize someone? Husband has agreed to explain the 1914 for me in writing, but when I said he needed to explain the 607 date as well, he didn't even know what I was talking about. I will say trying to follow the 586/7/607 date threads here can be difficult. I do have the book by Carl Olaf Jonson and need to reread it. How can he even consider getting baptized into a religion (cult) when he doesn't even understand the main doctrine?! Even the redefining of 'generation' he doesn't understand the implications. Or the distress it has caused many jw's. He has no idea how 607 even relates to 1914, he hasn't even heard of it! He has been studying with jw's for two years! I am so frustrated, any suggestions? carla

Narkissos

Try this classic thread by Alleymom: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx

This is a simple demonstration that Neo-Babylonian chronology, as unwittingly acknowledged by various WT publications, allows no room for the extra 20 years or so which should be needed for Jerusalem's fall to have occurred in 607/6 BC instead of 587/6.

OldSoul

carla, If I may, I would recommend a different approach. Ask specific questions that point up your friend's lack of comprehension without confronting him.

Here are some examples:

"Are you really okay with answering 'Yes' to a question that pledges your relationship with God as subordinate to your relationship with an organization?"

w85 6/1 p. 30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah?s Witnesses in association with God?s spirit-directed organization?

"Are you going to let strangers come between you and God, instead of Jesus being your mediator? Where is the scriptural evidence that Christ is a mediator only for the 144,000?"

w91 2/15 p. 17-18, pars. 8, 11 ?You Were Bought With a Price?
8 Hence, the ransom sacrifice is fundamental to the new covenant, of which Jesus is the Mediator. Paul wrote: ?There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all?this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.? (1 Timothy 2:5, 6) Those words especially apply to the 144,000, with whom the new covenant is made.

11 Nevertheless, in a preliminary way, the great crowd have already ?washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.? (Revelation 7:14) Christ does not act as Mediator of the new covenant toward them, yet they benefit from this covenant through the work of God?s Kingdom. Christ still acts toward them, however, as High Priest, through whom Jehovah can and does apply the ransom to the extent of their now being declared righteous as God?s friends. (Compare James 2:23.) During the Millennium, they will gradually ?be set free from enslavement to corruption [until finally they] have the glorious freedom of the children of God.??Romans 8:21.

If I understand correctly, a fundamental doctrine is the need to recognize the Brothers of Christ, the Faithful and Discreet Slave. Can you clearly explain to me who the 144,000 are?

Then don't let him get away with linking Luke 12:32; John 10:16 without explaining why those two scriptures are tied together. There is no explanation. Follow by asking, "Couldn't the other sheep have been the Gentiles?"

Sometimes, history doesn't matter so much to a person. But all JWs are trained as they start studying that doctrinal truths have to be based only on the Bible. As they approach baptism they are introduced to more "solid food" that isn't based on anything but ~~Faithul and Discreet Slave~~ Governing Body reasoning. I hope you find this helpful.

Respectfully,
OldSoul

carla

Thanks, this is just what I need. My own frustrations with this whole situation sometimes cloud the issues. As well as what this has done to our relationship. Thanks again, carla

Why Georgia

Carla,

I don't have much to offer as I am married to a fading away JW who still firmly believes their lies and bs in some regards.

I can tell you the mistakes I made.

Don't come off like a zealot and with anger. It shuts the person down immediately and they don't take anything you have to say seriously even if it is the truth.

Pick your battles wisely...

Stop being an opposer and just ask friendly questions under the guise of not understanding....these little seeds will sprout.

It has taken 7 years but those seeds that I planted are really starting to bloom with my husband.

Good luck!

Why Georgia

Also, if this person has children or is planning on having them you may want to ask questions in regard to the child molestation issues.

Check out Bill Bowens website silentlambs.org

Not to mention the flip flops with the blood issue and if this person is willing to die for the organizations beliefs.

carla

Wev'e talked till we are blue in the face about the child molestation problem. But, of course these things only happen in some other cong. and if elders cover it up that is hypocritical, etc.. but, then on the other hand he says aren't we supposed to forgive? around and around we go. Justice and forgiveness are two seperate things. If your child stole a candybar or something, you would forgive them but wouldn't some kind of punishment be in order? Like paying it back, taking away privelage or whatever. I haven't gotten to much into the blood thing with him. We have two kids, the HIPPA law just went into effect. I need to research it more, but, I think at 12 years of age the child can keep things private as well as making a choice of blood. Need to further research it. I still can't undestand how you can be baptized into something you don't even understand. It just makes no sense to me. I guess that's why it's a cult. carla

Why Georgia

Carla,

My heart goes out to you. I have 2 sons and I have sent a letter to all the local hospitals saying they are allowed blood products and the same for me.

I also had my health matters put in my parents hands if I am not able to make them for myself.

It is a horrible position to be in. My husband and I fought all the time about this until I just had to let it go and draw a line in the sand.

I said you do this - I will leave and I will take the boys. They are not going to the KH, they will not be around your JW relatives and no JW's are coming to my house anymore.

My husband was born and raised a JW and had been away when we met and married. When I was due with our first son that is when he went back. It was horrendously stressful and at times I hate him for putting that stupid cult before me and the boys.

I have done everything in my power to get my husband out and I do not fight fair.

He will see a difference in how they treat him after he is baptized for have an unbelieving wife and he will put pressure on you and the kids to join him.

Apparently there is always a need for "Good Brothers."

Be strong and don't give up.

Big hugs to you!

Why Georgia

Also...one more thing.

Sometimes if we just act like we have given up the fight....they will give up fighting us.

I think sometimes our darling husbands just don't like being told what to do.

Can you plan fun family activities on the meeting days and times? Ask him if he wants to go and if not go without him.

If he is a good father he will hate missing out on the times with you and the kids.

bikerchic

He has no idea how 607 even relates to 1914, he hasn't even heard of it! He has been studying with jw's for two years!

These deeper things aren't what a Bible Study will get. They prefer to start the new ones on the "milk" of the Troof as the JW's feel the deeper things are for the more seasoned JW.

As OldSoul pointed out it's much later after they've suckered you into it that you begin to connect the dots and by then the guilt of either not understanding or not fully believing it keeps you there due to the mind game of it being the only true religion and you'll be destroyed with all the wicked at Armageddon.

Scare tactic the cult WTS uses too well and the longer you are in the harder it is to get out. Keep presenting all the things you've learned here to your husband and hopefully he won't get dunked!

Get the book Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz and read it, leave it laying around for him to read too.

http://www.freeminds.org/sales/books.htm#crisis

Kate

What would you say?

Share this