I stepped out of the Publix Grocery in Orlando, the heat hit me first and as my eyes adjusted to the glare of the parking lot, I saw him, white hat, white shirt, black as Ethiopia with a gray mustache, seemingly untouched by the temperature wafting up off the asphalt, smiling big as he conversed with a middle aged couple by a car. Doing streetwork and enjoying it. Thank you God. I love to find a Witness. I look for them all the time and despite all the hours they turn in I have a hard time catching them. I guess that's because I am usually looking in a strange city and am always trying to get somewhere. Still sometimes I tell my wife, "This neighborhood, I just know I could find some on a pretty morning in this neighborhood. I will just take a little while but I want to drive through and check it out." Usually nothing. But not today. Today, when I am not even looking, here one is like a gift! He looks so confident and happy, looks to be in his late fifties, maybe an elder! I've got one. Wouldn't you know I am under a little time pressure. I am on vacation and my wife and I are on the way to my son's place. She wanted to stop and get some odds and ends. Even if it makes us late, I will take some time for this.
I walk up quietly, nod and stop to listen, they all turn and look at me expectantly. I say, "Don't mean to be rude, but if you are having a bible conversation, just thought I would listen in, especially if you are a Jehovah's Witness, which you seem to be. Don't let me slow you down, just go on with what you're talking about, I can wait." The couple seems a little taken aback, but he eats it up, he says with a grin "We all are." echoed by the other two, "Yes, we are all Jehovah's Witnesses." Three when I only hoped for one, I love it. He hands me a tract, on the front it has a picture of a little girl with a basket of flowers in front of a tombstone, it says beneath the picture, "What Hope for dead loved ones?" He asks me, "What hope do you have for your loved ones?" All fine and good but not what I want to talk about. I can see my wife standing in the front of the store now, looking at me with a frown. She knows what is going on, and knows it might be a while, it is hot and we do need to go. "Not what I want to talk about, friend, I was just wondering if you are in the New Covenant?" I know this will probably make him think I am a Pentecostal or something. I should have asked, "Have you been born again?" but just couldn't go quite that far. I DON'T want him to wonder if I am an ex-witness, apostate to him, if he thinks that,... then nothing I say will matter. He grins like a shark in a school of fish, says "Well, the old law was nailed to the torture stake with Jesus and it had already said back here in the Old Testament that there was gonna be a new covenant.." as he says this he is thumbing through the old testament but not finding what he is looking for. I am in a hurry so I butt in and say "It is at Jeremiah 31:31, quoted again in Hebrews word for word and it does say there will be a new covenant, a covenant of the heart that you don't have to teach your fellow man, my question was..... are you, yourself, in it?" He stops a second, me quoting the scripture throws him a little and he eyes me and gets a little cagey, "Well, now, what uh, what would you say the criteria for that would be???" He thinks he has me pegged as a backwoods, redneck, probably some kind of preacher, well, he is in the ball park. I am backwoods, was raised a redneck and I sure want to "preach" to him and his friends. Still, I don't have enough time to really play this game so I cut to the chase, not wanting to sound anything like a witness, "Well,... I'd say if you eat the Bread... and Drink the Wine at the Passover, The Lord's Supper..you know?...., then you are in the New Covenant, didn't Christ say when he had the last Passover, everywhere it quotes him....the Gospels, even Corinthians,.... "This is my blood, OF THE COVENANT? That would mean his blood pays for your sins, if now.....if.. he is your high priest... and IF you are in the covenant." He says, "I am then." I am surprised, he is lying and knows it.....I guess, hmmmm...this forces my hand a little. I say, "You eat the bread and drink the wine at the Lord's Evening Meal?" He says, "Well, no, if that is the criteria, no, I don't. But, the ransom sacrifice of Jesus pays for my sins and I am in the Covenant." Too much, I have to break cover a little. "No you are not. Not according to what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe. Do you know what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe?" Now he is the one who is surprised, "Oh, YOU gonna tell ME!!! WHAT I BELIEVE???" We are starting to get a little loud so I say low and slow, "Yep. I sure will. See...I know all about you. I have researched the Jehovah's Witnesses and your church doesn't believe you are in the New Covenant or that Jesus is your High Priest or that Jesus is your Mediator. All of Y'all are the same 'cause you think the Covenant is a covenant for a kingdom (the woman nods and says "It was a covenant for a kingdom.") and that only a hundred and forty four thousand kings and priests are gonna be in it and.....NONE of y'all eat the Bread or drink the Wine, now do you? Because you think you are gonna live on the earth. So none of y'all are in The Covenant. Course I think y'all are wrong and that all of you Should be in it because it says in Ephesians, "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism!" I do say y'all all the time, but as this guy had such good diction and was using proper English, I hoped that allowing free rein to my natural speech would distance me from the Boys in Brooklyn and make me seem less of a threat due to my being a hillbilly, also calling their group a church might help. In addition to that being an accurate scripture it is also one frequently quoted by fundamentalists. I thought that what I said about the mediatorship would stir the ant bed up pretty good as somehow most witnesses haven't let that sink in and I hoped it would make them think a little in spite of themselves. Everything had been so nice and polite up till then. At this all three began to clamor, the woman said, "That's not true, they would never say that! because that is not true! and we all pray through Jesus' name when we pray!" Her husband (I guess) says," There's a verse that says he IS the mediator between God and all men!" I told him it was 1 Tim. 2:5-6, the older guy is looking up Revelation to prove that it was a covenant with only 144,000 and starts telling me the names of the tribes. He (the older black man) says, "I have distributed literature that taught Jesus is the Mediator for all men!" I say, "Nope. They say that is just for the 144,000." Things are cooking. I tell the older guy, "The number 144,000 is symbolic, those aren't the twelve tribes of Israel, you are listing Joseph's sons also and it is all symbolic anyway don't you think? It also says there in Revelation that they weren't defiled by women, are you saying that is literal too?" The old guy says "No, some of the anointed ARE WOMEN so that has to be symbolic!" I say, "So everything is symbolic except the number, huh?" The old guy says "No, but that number is literal." The woman is still telling me that the society has always taught that Jesus is the Mediator, the other guy is just being quite and listening. Probably doesn't like how loud the conversation got for a minute or two. Anyway, it is time to go, my poor wife is eager to leave and has been real patient. She is standing in the shade out in front of the store, I motion for her to come on out and then fire my parting shot, "Look, you can believe it or not, it is up to you. I think you are right in what you think now. I hope you keep believing that Jesus is the Mediator for all men no matter what anyone says, and that is definitely what the scripture says, but not what your religion teaches. I've got to go as my I've made my wife wait long enough in this heat, last thing I want to ask you is.. If I am right, and you will find I am right on this, that they teach he is not your mediator or your high priest and that you are not under the blood of the covenant (they all try to talk at once here) IF I AM RIGHT AND THEY DO TEACH IT, .....WHAT WILL YOU DO??? What will you do? Thanks for talking to me, maybe I'll see y'all around, I hope so." I turn to walk away, the older man is saying, "Hey, she can wait some! I gave you my time out here! You can stay here and talk a little longer!" I was tempted to point out that he was counting time and I wasn't but that would be too much. The woman is looking really troubled. I hope because she knows the ring of truth when she hears it. I open the door for my wife who is looking a little irritated but not saying anything. As we drive away I say, "Baby, this was the most important thing I will do today. Maybe, just maybe when they check it out and see I was telling the truth, they will remember what they said when they were arguing that the society would never teach that." We saw our son that day, the next day on over to Redington Beach, beautiful waves from a storm in the Gulf, live music, great seafood, even had a crab and creamcheese omelet for breakfast this morning at a place called Kenny's Korner, but I still keep thinking back to the bit of time in the parking lot at Publix. That woman, she was so adamant that they would never teach that, as it was against what the bible said. I think she will check, and when she checks...... Maybe, just maybe.
What I did on my vacation
by Grunt 10 Replies latest jw experiences
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Grunt
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mommy
Grunt!
It is so great to see you posting again. There are so many old timers here that have been M.I.A. I am glad to see you back.I agree, that was the most important thing for you to do that day, and I for one am thankful you did. A few months ago, someone showed me a scripture in the bible, I had never seen. I refused to this person it was even in the bible I could not believe it. But when I saw with my own eyes, and thought with my own mind, My jaw was open and my heart forever changed. Thanks Cygnus
I am glad you are enjoying Florida...I do not miss it this time of year, but I love to visit in the fall...haha
I asked in another thread, but was wondering how things are with your daughter? Has she calmed down some with her shunning of you? That has bothered me, so much so, I still think of it often((((hugs))) to you and your lovely wife.
wendyIn a controversy the instant we feel anger, we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.
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Francois
Grunt, that was an excellent post. I'm really impressed. And I've been out so long (or it's so late this evening) that I didn't quite follow your reasoning. I will read your post again tomorrow. Even though I don't immediately get your point, I'm like the woman in the crowd you referenced - I know I just heard something very important and I'm not sure what it was; but I intend to find out real soon.
Thanks for a great post.
Frank
Where it is a duty to worship the Sun you can be sure that a study of the laws of heat is a crime.
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jayhawk1
Amen Grunt! I wish I had the courage to say what you said. I just pray that all Jehovah's Witnesses look on the net and get the answers that I have gotten. I hope all will learn the truth about this religion and get out.
"Hand me that whiskey, I need to consult the spirit."-J.F. Rutherford
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outnfree
Grunt,
I don't think we've met, but Wendy says you're an "old-timer" and I have seen you post a few times, but I wanted to say that I'm very impressed! Anything we can do to help stop the spread of DISinformation that the WTBTS foists on its members is very important.
Thanks to your post, I will remember to take the time to stop whenever I see Witnesses in the street work --
the ones who don't know me to disabuse them of the lies they've been fed ; and
the ones who DO know me to say "Hi! How are you? How's the family?" as I refuse to shun THEM!
outnfree
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waiting
Howdy Grunt,
Y'all saying we sound like hillbillies when we say "y'all?" Ain't you sumthan, bubba.
He (the older black man) says, "I have distributed literature that taught Jesus is the Mediator for all men!" I say, "Nope. They say that is just for the 144,000." Things are cooking. I tell the older guy, "The number 144,000 is symbolic, those aren't the twelve tribes of Israel, you are listing Joseph's sons also and it is all symbolic anyway don't you think? It also says there in Revelation that they weren't defiled by women, are you saying that is literal too?" The old guy says "No, some of the anointed ARE WOMEN so that has to be symbolic!" I say, "So everything is symbolic except the number, huh?" The old guy says "No, but that number is literal."
Until a person walks away, it's hard to see the illogical statements. But that old man said something interesting I've not read before. The 144,000 are chosen while still upon the earth - so therefore, the argument can't be raised that they're all "spirits" in heaven.
He's right - has to be symbolic. But being a jw - he can turn around and honestly (not necessarily truthfully) answer that the number (found 2 times) is the only literal thing in Revelation.
How convenient for the WTBTS.
I have researched the Jehovah's Witnesses and your church doesn't believe you are in the New Covenant or that Jesus is your High Priest or that Jesus is your Mediator.
I read somewhere in WT material that they do teach that Jesus is all jw's High Priest - but only the Mediator for the 144,000. That is why the average jw prays through Jesus - as our High Priest.
But what is the difference between the High Priest and the Mediator? The High Priest was the mediator for the Israelites because they couldn't come to God directly in their sinful condition.
Jesus took the place of the High Priest. The WTBTS (144,000) say they're taking the place of the Mediator. Split authority before God.
Sort of like our baptism questions - gotta get the WTBTS in there someplace equal to Jesus.
As we drive away I say, "Baby, this was the most important thing I will do today. Maybe, just maybe when they check it out and see I was telling the truth, they will remember what they said when they were arguing that the society would never teach that."
Man.........my husband never calls me "baby." *sigh*
waiting
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Grunt
It is late and we just had guests leave but I had to check the mail and wanted to try and answer you all, Y'all that is! Wendy, Waiting, it is always a pleasure to see your names on a post. I am honored to share a board with you. People like you are the ones who should be talking to these poor cult members. You know, we are all they really have to help them out. We have the goods on them and know whereof we speak, this experience came at a high price and I really do try to help them anytime I get a chance by sharing, not my story but my information.
Wendy, thanks for the hugs and my daughter is still putting on a normal look when we are thrown together as at weddings and such. She seems a little warmer and now when she writes (she asked me not to e-mail) she sometimes addresses it to my wife AND me. Sad situation. I have been pretty blunt with her and said all I know to say so for the sake of my wife and my relationship with my parents, I let the game go on.
Frank, my only point was in telling an experience I had, and hoping to encourage others to talk to any witness they see in service and try to help them out a little. As many of us as there are, we could really make a difference and at least make them have to study up and get beyond the regurgitation of the simple messages they have prepared. Most know very little about their real history and most don't understand the mediatorship and how low they are on the totem pole at all. With the ones I've talked to it is usually a shock, they usually respond with denying that Christ isn't their mediator according to the Society. The key is trying to keep them thinking about what you are saying and don't get them thinking about who you are. I feel deceptive, trying to deliberately make them think I am a pentecostal or whatever without really saying that, but otherwise everything you say doesn't count and you can't help them. I am sure you could help me out in methods, and I would appreciate any advice you could give me as I am a one man show, and just a novice at that.
Waiting, so good to see you on the board and I will double check that on the high priest tomorrow. I am pretty sure that they not only deny he is the "other sheep's" high priest but they even deny (if I remember right) that he is an "eternal" high priest even for the 144,000 which contradicts scripture also. They say all the poor old Other Sheep get is what the 144,000 "render" for them, the "overflow" of blessings that pours off the Kings and Priests. After all, Jesus is not their lawyer, but he is the 144,000's lawyer, according to them.
Jayhawk, it doesn't take courage at all, just compassion and a lot of patience. You have to hope for the delayed response that you won't get to see. You have the information, and they NEED to hear it.
OutnFree, I hope you do talk to them. Like I said the only hard part is keeping them from asking if you are an ex-witness, you have to be careful to avoid catch phrases that only witnesses use. I wish you well. If the high quality people on this board were out in front of the car groups it would make for a morning they could all go back and talk about. I like to take the conversational lead and ask them the questions, it humbles them some. I see their two class christianity and contradiction of the whole premise of the new covenant as ONE of their many weak points and it is one most don't understand well and you can get them to realize they have views at odds with the organization over. Ah well, I have to go to bed. Thank all of you (allayall) for responding. -
waiting
Hey Grunt,
Glad to hear you're doing well - and that your daughter is melting the ice a little. Seems to me you came on this forum telling jokes - a good way to ease in. Perhaps you could try this approach with your daughter? Slide a joke in an e-mail, etc. "just passing it along your way."
As for the mediator/high priest thing - I don't remember where I read it. But I believe it was the WTBTS weasle-way of getting around the idea of why we pray "through" Jesus. Because we know they teach that he is not our mediator - so why else would we pray "through" him?
I think their reasoning was that Jesus was a "legal mediator" and a "religious high priest." The legal was for the new covenant with the 144,000, but the priestly duties were for all believers. I guess the idea also was that the world in general has no mediator.
I remember reading it and thinking "If I was still a jw, I would have bought that reasoning." Another occasion of saying "Oh, ok." without really trying to reason on it - too much double talk. Much easier to just accept. If you're a jw, what else can you do?
But I really don't remember where I read it. Shaun's Place as a good breakdown on the Mediator teaching of the WTBTS.
Shaun's Place: http://www.jwfiles.com/mediator.htm
Hope you hang around?
waiting
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Seven
Hi Grunt!! It's great to see you again! What a post! Thank you for sharing. I'm in complete agreement with your statement to Jayhawk that patience is the key. They desperately need to hear this information. They do not know their history. I am ecstatic having gotten to witness that delayed response you were talking about-two out of three of my closet friends have left the org in the past four months. Yeah Baby!!
Best wishes to you and your family. Always a please to have you here.
{{hugs}}
Sevenedited for spelling
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Grunt
Hello Seven,
Great to see you also. I envy you your getting to see your friends come out. I would love to think I had helped to save someone, and their loved ones, the pain that being in this cult can cause. You and Waiting and Wendy always make me real glad to get a chance to post. My wife and I have been on the road for about three months off and on and I am looking forward to getting back home to stay and back in the groove here pretty quick. I think this board is great and has some real good discussions, but sometimes I miss the smalltown feeling we used to have. I hope old Frenchy is doing ok. Now there was a reasonable guy. Well, it is late here in Florida so I better shut it down. Thanks for always speaking and thanks to all of you for being high quality people that I am proud to call friends. After reading posts here I often think the Tower has lost its best and brightest.