Daniel's Prophecy, 605 BCE or 624 BCE?

by Little Bo Peep 763 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • scholar
    scholar

    Narkissos and Leolaia

    What then is the position concerning the transaltion of Jeremiah 29: 10? Is the NWT rendering of this phrase impossible or highly improbable? You state that you are knowlegeable of Hebrew and Linguistics so Why not provide evidence that shows the impossibility that le in Jeremiah 29:cannot be rendered as 'at' but must be rendered as'for'. Also, as you are skilled in exegesis this exercise should be easy for you both as you can work togethger on it and take as much time as necessary. When you are finished then post your thesis on this board and I will examine it and if it is of scholarly merit then I will make representation to the NWT Committee in order that in a future revision of the NWT a revised rendering can be made.

    In reviewing the Jonsson hypothesis in the third edn of the GTR, pp.211-15, Jonsson discusses the matter of transalting this preposition. The rendering of 'for Babylon' instead of 'at Babylon' is the very basis of his hypothesis. If there is some doubt or leeway about this matter then his whole hypothesis is rendered useless so there is a lot riding on it. In fact, Jonsson is taking a big gamble as his whole hypothesis rests on the meaning of a single preposition.

    Jonsson rather arrogantly asserts that according to modern Hebrew scholars they generally agree that the local or spatial sense of le is highly improbable or impossible at Jeremiah 29:10. Jonsson rather than sourcing the fact of the matter from a journal article, grammar or lexicon instead refers to partially quoted letters from three scholars only. If in fact the evidence was so demonstrably evident that the NWT was in error lexically or gramatically then why did he not refer to standard Hebrew reference works? I put the case to you that Jonsson in his private research realized that no such evidence was and is available and had to solicit opinions favourable to his argument. If this is the case then this is shabby and amateurish scholarship.

    I anticipate your thesis at your earliest possible convenience

    scholar JW

  • link
    link

    The sadest part about this thread, in my humple opinion, is that it appears to basically have nothing whatsoever to do with chronology. It seems to me that here we have a very sad situation in which a practicing Jehovahs Witness is desperately attempting to justify the basis for the Watchtower teachings. To his way of thinking the fact that the Society could be in error is something that cannot be allowed to enter his mind - the possibility just does not exist.

    The reason is quite simple: If this Jehovahs Witness (or any other) were ever to admit the simple fact that the Society holds to an incorrect interpretation of Scripture, particularly the very one upon which all their beliefs and teachings are based, their worlds would come to a sudden end. For them it is a matter of life and death - literally. I believe that this is precisely why the Governing Body are unable to correct something that started out as a simple misunderstanding and has had to be allowed to grow into a lie which must now continue forever.

    The fact that not a single Watchtower supporter has come to the aid of our struggling Witness in his attempt to justify an obviously wrong scriptural interpretation speaks volumes. The fact that it cannot be justified means that it is a topic that, for the majority of Witnesses, must be avoided.

    Any thoughts?

    link

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho

    The sadest part about this thread, in my humple opinion, is that it appears to basically have nothing whatsoever to do with chronology.

    Your right it doesnt. Does the average jw have the 607 mess explained to them in this way? No they dont the average jw just swallows the mothers milk.

    Just say the newbie jw asks' jw scholar a question at the hall one day, like what is the kings order of reign from 625bc to 539 bc? Scholar cannot and will never give a comphensive knigs list because it will show where-in his deception lies. Period.

  • GetBusyLiving
    GetBusyLiving

    Scholar cannot even conceive that the Watchtower's 'chronology' is wrong because as soon as he does, the VERY SECOND he comes to terms with it, whether he vocalizes it or not - he has become an apostate of the Watchtower cult. He's too intellectually dishonest to allow that to happen.

    GBL

  • scholar
    scholar

    elderwho

    The simple fact is that we do have a complete chronology for the OT and have had so many decades, But supporters of the Jonsson hypothesis only have a stanfard chronology for the Neo-Babylonian period. If your chronology is so acccurate and WT chronology is srroneous then why do you present a chronology of the OT or at least a chronology for the Divided Monarchy.

    It is evident that my critics on this are deadly frightened that I am right and they are wrong because of the fear and hysteria that my posts on chronology generate and this makes my solo comments worthwhile.

    scholar JW

  • Alwayshere
    Alwayshere
    chronicles also shows when the seventy years would end when the royality of persia begin to reign Jeremiahis prophecy indicates that the 70 years would be a period of desolation, servitude and exile

    Scholar that is exactly what i said! The seventy years does end in 539 when the royalty of Persia begin to reign.So add 70 to 539=609. 609-539 is how long Babylon had World power. After saying "They will serve the King of Babylon for 70 years" in Jeremiah 25, the following verse [12] says "when the 70 years are accomplished I will punish the King of Babylon AND THAT NATION " Chapter 29 tells of a letter that Jeremiah sent to all the captives that Nebuchadnezzar carried from Jerusalem to Babylon. The letter told the captives to build houses, plant gardens. marry and havechildren and in verse 10, they are told after the 70 years are accomplished at Babylon that God would keep his word and return them to Jerusalem. They had to stay in Babylon 70 years before they could return. Jeremiah does not say the land will be desolated for 70 years, it says"the whole land will be desolated."If you read verse 9, it wasn't just Judah that would be desolated but all the nations.The 70 years is only linked to serving the King of Babylon. But Scholar, I realize you can't believe the Bible if you want to stay in that cult. You have to believe the WTS over the Bible.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Scholar,

    The biased NWT translation of Jeremiah 29:10 is not worth a thesis, not even a footnote in a decent study bible. Actually nobody would have thought of translating "at Babylon" were it not for the WT agenda.

    The sense of the expression appears clearly (for any Hebrew scholar, if not for you), as I already said, in the good structural parallel of Leviticus 25:30:

    When seventy years are completed for Babylon,
    lephi melo'th lebhabhel shiv'im shana
    Until a full year is completed for it (the house),
    `ad melo'th lô shana temima

    The next closest parallel implies a finite form of ml' qal (instead of the infinitive melo'th), in Genesis 50:3:

    They completed fourty days for him (Jacob-Israel),
    wayyimle'u lô 'arba'im yom

    The use of le in those comparatively late texts is a well-known stylistic substitution for the more classic genitive (Joüon § 130),
    - either in the form of construct state, e.g. Leviticus 12:4:

    Until the days of her purification are completed,
    'ad melo'th yeme taharah.

    - or with a possessive pronoun, e.g. Genesis 25:24:

    When her days for giving birth were completed,
    wayyimle'u yameha laledeth
    Interestingly the equivalence of le with the genitive (construct state) is obvious in the immediate context of Jeremiah 29:10, namely in the antithetical parallelism in the following verse (11):
    plans of peace and not for harm,
    machshevoth_shalom welô' lera`a

    So "the seventy years for Babylon" is a Hebrew equivalent for "the seventy years of Babylon". Not "the seventy years (for somebody) at Babylon".

    End of discussion as far as I am concerned.

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho
    elderwho

    The simple fact is that we do have a complete chronology for the OT and have had so many decades,

    Then make the WT neo- kings list work. From 625bc to 539bc.

    But, I know you will not, because like the Tower its just smoke and mirrors. And you will be exposed further than you are now.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Jonsson rather than sourcing the fact of the matter from a journal article, grammar or lexicon instead refers to partially quoted letters from three scholars only. If in fact the evidence was so demonstrably evident that the NWT was in error lexically or gramatically then why did he not refer to standard Hebrew reference works? I put the case to you that Jonsson in his private research realized that no such evidence was and is available and had to solicit opinions favourable to his argument. If this is the case then this is shabby and amateurish scholarship.

    If anything deserves being called "shabby and amateurish" it was your own post #508 which (as Narkissos and I pointed out) had cited phony parallels that not only failed to represent anything like the construction in Jeremiah 29:10, but didn't even include the very preposition that's being discussed. That you would even make such an argument indicates you don't understand the linguistic issue involved.

    As to whether critical scholarship sides with Jonsson or not, I will only quote Jonsson's recent discussion on Jeremiah 29:10 which presents the comments of Ernst Jenni --one of the scholars contacted by Jonsson -- on this very subject. As Jenni indicates, his own lexicon (which is the most exhaustive work on the subject, covering all 20,275 instances of the preposition) supports not only Jonsson's position but also the vast majority of modern translations which render l-bbl as "for Babylon":

    This question was sent to Professor Ernst Jenni in Basel, Switzerland, who is undoubtedly the leading authority today on Hebrew prepositions. So far, he has written three volumes on three of the Hebrew prepositions, b e (beth), k e (kaph), and l e (lamed). In Die hebräischen Prepositionen. Band 3: Die Präposition Lamed (Stuttgart, etc.: Verlag Kohlhammer, 2000), he devotes 350 pages to the examination of l e. His answer of October 1, 2003 was:

    "As I recently have received an inquiry from Germany concerning Jer 29,10 (likewise in connection with a theory of Jehovah's Witnesses), I can answer you relatively quickly.

    My treatment of this passage is found in the Lamed-book p. 109 (heading 4363). The rendering in all modern commentaries and translations is 'for Babel' (Babel as world power, not city or land); this is clear from the language as well as also from the context.

    By the 'local meaning' a distinction is to be made between where? ('in, at') and where to? (local directional 'to, towards'). The basic meaning of l is 'with reference to', and with a following local specification it can be understood as local or local-directional only in certain adverbial expressions (e.g., Num. 11,10 [Clines DCH IV, 481b] 'at the entrance', cf. Lamed pp. 256, 260, heading 8151). At Jer. 51,2 l is a personal dative ('and send to Babel [as personified world power] winnowers, who will winnow it and empty its land' (Lamed pp. 84f., 94)). On Jer. 3,17 'to Jerusalem' (local terminative), everything necessary is in Lamed pp. 256, 270 and ZAH 1, 1988, 107-111.

    On the translations: LXX has with babylôni unambiguously a dative ('for Babylon'). Only Vulgata has, to be sure, in Babylone, 'in Babylon', thus King James Version 'at Babylon', and so probably also the New World Translation. I hope to have served you with these informations and remain with kind regards,

    E. Jenni."

    [Translated from the German. Emphasis added.]

    I'm sure you're familiar with Jonsson's response to Furuli and would know of Jenni and his discussion on Jeremiah 29:10 in his authoritative work. Yet you talk as if no such support existed, when it is the local meaning that was exceptional in Hebrew (as Jenni points out, was restricted only to certain adverbial constructions) and the usual rendering "for Babylon" is perfectly in keeping with the usual sense of the preposition in Hebrew. Note also that Narkissos' point about examining other instances of the construction in Jeremiah 29:10 (such as occurring in Leviticus 25:30) is exactly what Jenni does on p. 109 (section 4363) of his Lamed volume, where he examines other instances of preposition in predicates of the verb ml' "to complete, fulfill".

  • scholar
    scholar

    elderwho

    The simple fatct is that you do not have a complete chronology of the OT and you do not have a complete chronology for the reigns of kings for the Divided Monarchy in Israel and Judah.

    What you do have is a chronology for the Neo-Babylonian period only.

    scholar JW

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