Was Jesus the first creation of God ?

by enquirer 117 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Zen:
    That's a very interesting post.

    ... much of religious mysticism is based on the notion that another more real world exists and is hidden from us.

    I agree with this, but not with the "physical" not being real.

    I have thusfar identified a few different kind of dreams, but mainly concentrate on two. The lucid kind, where you traverse the "hidden world", and the symbolic kind, which can include prophetic ones or stuff "worked out" by the subconscious.

    (I dont give a stuff that this thread has been completely derailed, incidentally. It seems it's been abandoned, anyhow)

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    "Real" is a word, and a concept, too. A pretty abstract one at that.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Narkissos:
    True.

    Where do you sit on all of this?
    I'm interested on your view, as a scholar, and all...

    (btw, sorry if I offended you with that last PM I sent you, however many months ago it was )

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Hi LT,

    I cannot remember what PM you are alluding to, nor being offended by you in the slightest way!

    About this thread I already commented toward the beginning (I guess p. 1).

    About the present discussion between you and ZN I do believe we humans belong to at least two connected yet distinct spheres: the zoological as living beings and the logical as speaking beings.

    I think we already had a similar argument where I admitted being influenced by Lacan's "borromean knot" of "real", "symbolical" and "imaginary" instances. Not that I think of this theory as an ultimate "truth", but I found it was a working hypothesis in my case.

    (Btw, I wouldn't count myself as a "scholar" -- not a very enviable title on this board! )

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Narkissos:

    Lacan's "borromean knot"

    I find you to be a wealth of references to writings I've never heard of - LOL.
    I'll try and find this one. You've intrigued me

    I'll also double-check page1 - it seems so long ago - LOL.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Narkissos:
    Do you include Prov.7:4 in your comments about "Wisdom"?

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    Do you include Prov.7:4 in your comments about "Wisdom"?

    Although the hypostatization (or personification) of Wisdom is less obvious there than in chapters 8--9, Proverbs 1--9 reflect a certain unity. Those introductory chapters are a late addition (usually dated around the 5th century BC) to the generally older collection of Proverbs 10ff.

  • zen nudist
    zen nudist

    which "physical" are we talking about? the perceptions we "seem" to be sharing? [data?] or something you believe to exist as the foundation of those perceptions [symbols in your mind]?... for which you have nothing more than belief or faith as to their existance, or am I mistaken and you have found a way to get outside your mind and see the source of data by some other means?

    the universe may be made of objects which are the source of our perceptions of them.

    the universe may be made of minds made of something completely unknown and unknowable by us --sharing data which originates in those minds.

    in either case the ONLY universe we know is the one we perceive... so you can have faith in the "physical" model if you like, but I would point out that quantum physics has made that model a bit more complicated by saying that matter and energy is different depending on the test the observer uses to detect it...sometimes appearing as a wave and sometimes as a particle, and often times making no "classical" sense what so ever. [that is the idea of objective things does not make sense of the results of all tests].

    some physicists reject the notion that the observer plays a key role in the things observered...but have not been able to demonstrate another solution. Einstein, btw, hated this aspect of quantum physics and fought it with the remainder of his life-- if I am not mistaken, he was quoted to have said, if I had known it would turn out this way, I would have been a plumber....

    his famous quote-- "God does not play dice with the universe" was a rejection of quantum physical rules which demonstrated the possibility of true randomness having a place in the universe... he held out hope that some hidden determinism might be found... which some string theorists claim they have discovered... assuming a universe of more than nine dimensions.

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