by enquirer 117 Replies latest watchtower bible
I am discussing this subject with a friend who believes this and who uses the passage in Col 1 vs.15-17 as 'proof'. He also uses John 8 v 58. It is of course a question of Greek interpretation. Is there anyone out there who is a reliable Greek scholar who could verify what these verses really say? Just as a comment - I truly believe that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God but I believe that the Sriptures teach that he did not exist as a person until his birth of Mary.
Enquirer
I am certainly no scholar but the Greek word they translate as "beginning of Gods creation" actually means "The origin" of Gods creation. Christ is the Origin of creation not the first thing to be created (John 1: 1-6) Quite a different meaning to the JW twist on it.
Thats all
Brummie
Thankyou Brummie - sorry its so late, or rather early. Good of you to reply - I've had this subject 'on my mind' all day and wanted to have some other comment before I 'retire'. I'll give your comment serious thought when I'm more awake but I needed a fresh thought to continue the subject. One can get 'bogged down' on one line of reasoning and 'not see the wood for the trees'. Thankyou again.
Enquirer.
Matey go and get some sleep and leave it till morning, I'm sure this thread could get quite lengthy when the pretend JW apologists turn up, thats when you will need to be wide awake..
:)
Brummie
Colossians 1:15-17 in fact verifies that Jesus was NOT created. It says that he was the creator of "all things," which could not be true if he himself had been created. That's why the NWT adds the word "other" to the text in those verses, even though it isn't in the Greek. It's the only way to avoid having their theology devastated by those verses. Additionally, Jesus is said to be "before all things" and "in Him all things hold together" - how could that be true of a created being?
Colossians 1:15-17 in fact verifies that Jesus was NOT created. It says that he was the creator of "all things," which could not be true if he himself had been created. That's why the NWT adds the word "other" to the text in those verses, even though it isn't in the Greek. It's the only way to avoid having their theology devastated by those verses. Additionally, Jesus is said to be "before all things" and "in Him all things hold together" - how could that be true of a created being?
Hi Enquirer!
In the NT there are a number of contradictory "Christologies".
Some (as Luke's nativity narrative) imply no pre-existence of Jesus at all.
Others (as Paul's or John's) imply the pre-existence of a heavenly "Son of God".
Colossians 1:15 actually says "the firstborn (prôtotokos) of all creation". V. 18 also calls him absolutely "the beginning (arkhè)". Perhaps closer to your quotation would be Revelation 3:14, "the beginning of God's creation".
John 8,58 only implies some kind of pre-existence but does not refer to the beginning: "Before Abraham came to be, I am".
To sum up a very vast debate, I'd just say that all the expressions about God's Son being the "beginning", "origin" or "firstborn" of creation belong to an evolving theological tradition which started with the personification of Wisdom in Proverbs 8:22f. Actually the question whether the heavenly character known as "Wisdom" or "Son of God" was created or not was neither decided nor even asked this way before the trinitarian quarrels of the 4th-century-AD Catholic church. So one cannot expect from older texts a definite answer to this question.
For more background on this subject you may have a look at http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/66342/1.ashx
enquirer....On the subject of the evolving christological tradition and the question of pre-existence and the role of the Son in creation, see my thread on the subject:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/69107/1.ashx
To be real quick, the christological statements in Colossians 1:15-18 and Hebrews 1 are heavily dependent on the Wisdom tradition that originated with Proverbs 8, came to fruition in the books of Wisdom and Sirach, and were centrally crucial to the theology of the Holy Spirit as a distinct personality.
This article sums up what I've been taught...not there is a BIG difference between FIRST CREATED and FIRST BORN of creation. Had Jesus been the first created thing the greek would more properly read protoktizo not prototokos.
The First-Born of Creation
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exists." (Col. 1:15-17, The New World Translation).
Please note that this passage does not say Jesus was the "first created," but that He was the "first-born." The Bible doesn't use the Greek word for "first created (protoktizo), but firstborn (prototokos) of all creation.
The word "firstborn" refers to a position of pre-eminence rather than a time of birth. Rights and privileges were usually bestowed upon the child who was born first, but those rights did not always go to him. Manasseh was the first one born, but Jacob (Israel) blessed Ephraim instead of Manasseh and gave him the position of first-born (Gen. 48:13-22). In Jeremiah 31:9, God declares Ephraim to be His first-born, even though Manasseh was born first.
The same is true with Jacob and Esau. Although Esau was the first one born, Jacob (whose name was change to Israel) received his brother's birthright and his father's blessing and became the first-born. The nation of Israel was named after him, and the Lord calls Israel His first-born (Ex. 4:22). Here again, first-born refers to rank and privilege. It means first in importance, not first in time. The nation of Israel was not the first-born of a woman and not even the first nation to exist. But God called it the first-born among all the nations. In the same way, Jesus is the first-born of all creation.
The "first-born of the poor" (Isa. 14:30) means "the poorest of the poor." The "first-born of death" (Job 18:13) means Job's disease was the most terrible of diseases. The "first-born" of the kings means the highest of the kings of the earth (Ps. 89:27). David (v.20) was the last one born in his family, but was called the firstborn. The "first-born of the dead" (Col. 1:18, Rev. 1:5) means that Jesus is pre-eminent over death.
The New World Translation adds the word "other" four times, which is not in the Greek. They add to Scripture to make it look like Jesus was the first-created thing among God's creation. According to Jehovah's Witnesses, God created Jesus and then Jesus created all other things. This mistranslation of Col. 1:16-17 presents a problem for the Jehovah's Witnesses. Isaiah 44:24 says, "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone'". How is it possible for the LORD (Jehovah) to stretch out the heavens alone and yet Jesus, "the first created thing," be the one who did it? They can't both be true. Jesus is not the created, but the Creator (John 1:3,10, Heb. 1:10, Col. 1:16).
Enquirer,
The answer to the question you pose: Was Jesus the first creation by God is No! Perhaps the Logos did come into existence first out of all God?s non-human Sons but such facts are not discussed in scripture. Such a teaching would simply be a guess or assumption. The Logos was not Jesus when such Logos came into existence so there can only one answer to this question and that answer is NO. The Logos did create man. This is discussed in the introduction of John?s Gospel. And when this Logos became flesh he became the "only begotten" (human being) of the Father as this Logos did not do this by himself. This Logos (Jesus at this time in history) was the ONLY HUMAN Being begotten by the Father personally. This much we know and because of the context of John?s gospel we do not know who created the animals as his introduction is limited to the world of mankind. Now look at what they are teaching more closely.
Enquirer: I am discussing this subject with a friend who believes this and who uses the passage in Col 1 vs.15-17 as 'proof'.
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Verse 14 and 15 pertain to the redemption. Paul is now writing after the fact, after our Lord was sacrificed and resurrected to human life once again. He is a Son yes but in a human image representing the invisible God. Here he is telling us that because of such shedding of blood that He is the firstborn of every creature (the first to be so redeemed or resurrected) that will live in this promised kingdom. This is after all a discussion of our hope in Christ and future life in such earthly kingdom. A testimony to our hope in Christ. Then Paul gives this interesting background history.
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Everything and everyone discussed in these verses is human. They are the powers of darkness out of which we were taken and described in verse 13. The entire human race of times past that consisted of such powers is now described. Here the word heaven simply stands for those ruling over such darkness and the earth are simply those ruled by such powers. Look at the verse like this:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, (the governments or rulers) and that are in earth, (those ruled by such heavens) visible (local ruler) and invisible, (distant ruler as was Caesar in Rome) whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: (all human areangements for maintaining order on earth) all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
This Son was the creator of this human race and the one that permits such heavens (both good and bad) to exist to maintain order here until this Kingdom replaces such powers. So then:
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
We have this hope assured in that over all things our Lord is preeminent.
Enquirer: He also uses John 8 v 58. It is of course a question of Greek interpretation. Is there anyone out there who is a reliable Greek scholar who could verify what these verses really say?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Here the expression "Verily, verily" means an absolute truth follows: This truth is that Jesus existed (lived) before Abraham ever lived. As man?s creator this stands to reason. The fact that this Jesus did not exist as a human being at such a time is simply not discussed in this verse but live He did. Our Lord is answering the question "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?" truthfully. John had already made such a point of our Lords prior existence at John 1:1-10 and the Jews if they understood prophecy should have known this.
The resurrected Jesus now has a dual nature, the nature of Man and the nature of the Logos. Taking back the body that was executed in our behalf does not change history. In fact He had the Father's permission to take it back as it would be needed in the Kingdom. Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. He can therefore use either nature at anytime that He chooses. Notice that He did not use His human nature when appearing to Paul so that the incident cannot be confused with His second coming as a human being as described in Acts 1:11.
Joseph
