Take George out of the equation.

by Thunder Rider 127 Replies latest social current

  • Realist
    Realist

    blacksheep,

    yes hussein was a dictator and yes he eliminated his opposers. i am not a fan of the guy either but he wanted to make iraq the most westernized country in the region. the iran war and the following kuwait desaster stopped that. nevertheless could the west have cooperated with him just as they do with about all other dictators.

    "Putting pressure," how? And, that's been precisely what's been done. It's hasn't worked. They haven't taken the US seriously since we've shown time and again with wimpy presidents that we cave. The whole Iran hostage situation that Carter utterly bungled was the beginning of their seeing we barked but won't bite.

    the saudi and kuwaiti royal families for istance are only there because of western backing. you are telling me the US could not put pressure on them? HA!

    if the US can work together with pakistan (why here? because they have nukes) than it can work together with egypt etc.

    Again, the "putting pressure" word. What are you talking about? If you want to get THAT far BACK, the Israelis occupied Palestine thousands of years ago. So what? Maybe if Jews didn't encounter such abject prejudice and persecution in Europe, there wouldn't be a need for them to find a place to call home. I guess they shouldn't take Hitler murdering millions of them so personally. The vast majority of Jews today live in the US. Wonder why.

    what am i talking about? do you have any idea how much money the US channels to israel every year? plus the US blockes every UN resolution against israel.

    secondly, you cannot justify an ongoing violation of human rights and international law with the 2000 years ago bla bla or the holocaust. the jews got their state...that does not entitle them to occupy foreign territory.

    Well, good idea...we're all in favor of that. But you just said your good buddy Sadam kept control. And on the flip side, he was getting kickbacks from other countries in the oil for food program; money that was intended to purchase food for his people. Even when we've HAD those great programs, totalitarian leaders and corrupt governments (i.e. France, Russia) have taken food away from people.

    the question was what could the US do not france or russia. that these guys are not better than the US is obvious. they just operate on a smaller scale.

    again saddam was PRO education and PRO westernization. to remove him was from the standpoint of improving the terrorist situation counter productive to say the least.

    thichi,

    the prague story was already proven false BEFORE the war started! no one not even bush dares to dig that s**t up! you should keep up to date my friend!

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    I have seen no proof of your claim, the Newspaper has not retracted the facts....put up the proof!

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi
    Not disproven......

    Don't forget the the terrorist training camps in Salman Pak......

    Introduction

    The Czech government claims it has evidence that on April 8, 2001, Mohammed Atta, the ring-leader of the 9/11 hijackers, met in Prague with Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani, an Iraqi government official. Mr. Al-Ani worked in the Iraqi embassy in Prague. This meeting is controversial because the Czech and U.S. governments now disagree if this meeting ever occured or not. This FAQ attempts to look at all sides of this complex issue.

    ""Czech intelligence - the BIS - are noted for its accuracy and meticulousness. They have never backed away from their certainty that Atta met with Al-Ani, the Iraqi agent they were tailing around Prague.""

    Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Why is Mohammed Atta's alleged visit in the Spring of 2001 to Prague considered so important?

      If this meeting did occur, then it would be a strong indication of possible Iraqi government involvment in the 9/11 attacks, especially considering that Mohammed Atta would have had to make a special trip from the United States to Prague to attend this meeting. [1] This meeting would have also been Mohammed Atta's second visit to Prague in less than a year. [13]
    2. Why is the meeting between Mohammed Atta and Mr. Al-Ani in dispute?

      The meeting is in dispute because the CIA and FBI do not believe that Mohammed Atta ever left the United States during April 2001. [8]
    3. What evidence does the Czech Government have that Mohammed Atta was in Prague on April 8, 2001?

      The Czech government is unwilling to release any details about the information that they have about the disputed meeting other then to say Mr. Al-Ani was being observed by the BIS, the Czech intelligence service, because he was suspected of being a spy. The Czech government position has been made public by Hynek Kmonicek, a former deputy foreign minister, and interior minister Stanislav Gross. [1]
    4. What evidence does the U.S. government have that Mohammed Atta was in the United States on April 8, 2001?

      The US governement has no record of Mohammed Atta leaving and re-entering the US in April 2001. They also were unable to locate a plane ticket that would have been used Mr. Atta to fly between the US and the Czech Republic. Finally, the U.S. Government has tracked Mr. Atta's movements before 9/11 via phone records, cellphone bills, and credit card receipts as part of the investigation of the 9/11 attacks. [8] [3]
    5. How closely have the Czech and U.S. governments worked on the investigation of the disputed meeting?

      Presumably the BIS, CIA, and FBI have shared data on the April 8th meeting and Mohammed Atta's travels during the month of April.
    6. Has The US government officially stated its position publically on the disputed Prague meeting?

      No. The U.S. position has only been "leaked" to major media outlets (Newsweek, Washington Post, New York Times, etc.) by an unnamed source. Presumably this unnamed source is someone from the CIA. However, Donald Rumsfeld, the U.S. Secetary of Defense, more or less confirmed these leaks when he said he was no longer sure if Mohammed Atta ever met with Mr. Al-Ani or not when asked by Robert Novak, a Chicago Sun-Times columnist in May 2002. [2]
    7. Why has the dispute Prague meeting become such a political hot potato?

      Various "Iraqi hawks" in the United States want to use the meeting as a pretext for attacking Iraq as part of President Bush's war against terrorism. Some well-known "Iraqi Hawks" include Paul Wolfowitz (Deputy Secretary of Defense), William Safire (columnist for the New York Times), James Woolsey (former CIA director), and Laurie Mylroie (journalist).

      Skeptics of the Prague meeting point out that the evidence is skimpy at best that Iraq was involved in the 9/11 attacks. [2] [3] [8]
    8. How can the controversy over the Prague meeting be clearly up?

      The simplest solution is for both the Czech and U.S. governments come forward with the information that have about the Prague meeting and where Mohammed Atta was during the month of April 2001. For various security and political reasons, neither country is willing to take this step at the present time. Because of possible future military actions against Iraq, the U.S. government in particular wants to keep its options open. [17] On the other side, the Czech government seems reluctant to reveal its surveillance methods which can then be scrutinitized by indepedent investigators as well as foes. [19] Of course, new evidence can be developed by either country which can also end the dispute.
    9. If the meeting really did occur, what did Mohammed Atta and Mr. Al-Ani talked about?

      No one except for Mr. Al-Ani knows for sure. The BIS apparently was not able to listen in on the meeting. [19]
    10. What are some of the rumors that have been reported about Mohammed Atta's Meeting with Mr. Al-Ani?

      • Mr. Al-Ani is a high-level spymaster. [15]
      • The meeting was part of the planning process for the 9/11 attacks.
      • Mohammed Atta recevied money from Iraq to carry out the 9/11 attacks.
      • Mr. Al-Ani gave a vial of anthrax to Mohammed Atta which was used in the anthrax attacks of the fall 2001. [16]
      • Mohammed Atta was helping Mr. Al-Ani to disrupt Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty transmitters located in Prague. [12]
    11. Why was Mr. Al-Ani expelled from the Czech Republic in April 2001?

      The Czech government expelled Mr. Al-Ani from the Czech Republic on April 22, 2001 because he was "engaging in activities beyond his diplomatic duties". This is diplomatic speak for "spying." The Czech government in particular was concerned that Mr. Al-Ani was involved in a plot to disrupt the operations of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty transmitters in Prague which now regularly broadcast to Iraq. [14]
    12. Was Mr. Al-Ani is expulsion related to his meeting with Mohammed Atta?

      The Czech government says no. [15]
    13. What was Mr. Al-Ani is role at the Iraqi embassy in Prague?

      Mr. Al-Ani was a consul at the Iraqi embassy. His job seemed to be arranging business deals between European and Iraqi companies. He was also known to harass Iraqi citizens living in the Czech Republic to return to Iraq. [7] Given his explusion by the Czech Republic by the Czech government, Mr. Al-Ani job also likely involved spying.
    14. Has the Czech government ever changed its story about the disputed meeting?

      Yes. The Czech Prime Minister Milos Zeman told CNN in October, 2001 that the Mohammed Atta and Mr. Al-Ani were planning to destroy the headquarters of U.S.-funded Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty which now broadcasts to Iraq. [12]
    15. Has the U.S. government ever changed its story about the disputed meeting?

      Yes. During the fall of 2001, U.S. government officials supported the Czech government view that the Prague meeting had taken place. They even indicated that Mohammed Atta had left the U.S. right before April 8th and return to the U.S. right after April 8th. [14]
    16. When did the Czech government alert the US government about their information about the Mohammed Atta's meeting with Mr. Al-Ani?

      According to press reports, not until after the 9/11 attacks when someone at the BIS recognized either Mohammed Atta's name or picture. [11]
    17. Why didn't the Czech government alert the US government about the meeting in the April 2001?

      Before 9/11, the Czech government did not consider the meeting important enough to notify the U.S. government. [11]
    18. What has Iraq said about the alleged meeting between Mohammed Atta and Mr. Al-Ani in April 2001?

      The Iraqi government said that the meeting never occurred. [18]
    19. Where is Mr. Al-Ani today?

      The Prague Post reported that Mr. Al-Ani now works for the Foreign Ministry in Baghdad. [7]
    20. Did Mohammed Atta ever make any other visits to Prague?

      Yes. Before coming to the United States in June 2000, he spent approximately 24 hours in Prague. He travel to Prague by bus from Hamburg, Germany where he was a college student. From Prague he flew to Newark, New Jersey. This trip has been well documented. [13]
    21. What did Mohammed Atta do on his June 2000 visit in Prague?

      No one has any idea. Even the Czech government says they don't know what Mohammed Atta did on the his June 2000 trip. Some people have speculated that he could have met with Iraqi government officials, but no evidence has been provided for such a meeting. This trip to Prague does look suspicous because Mohammed Atta seemed to a make big effort to go to Prague before coming to the U.S. for the first time. [13]
    22. Did any other meetings occur between the 9/11 hijackers and members of the Iraqi government?

      No other meetings have been publically reported.
    23. Did any of the 9/11 hijackers make any overseas trips between when they arrived in the United States and the 9/11 attacks?

      Yes, the following trips have been documented by U.S. government investigators: [20] [21]

      Mohammed Atta 1/4/2001 Madrid, Spain
      Mohammed Atta7/7/2001 Zurich, Switzerland
      Alshehhi1/11/2001 Casablanca, Morocco
      Alshehhi4/18/2001 Amsterdam, The Netherlands
      Ziad Jarrah7/25/2001 Germany
    Links
    [1] UN envoy confirms terrorist meeting 
    Prague Post, June 5, 2002
    http://www.praguepost.com/P02/2002/20605/news1a.php [2] On Atta, Prague and Iraq
    Chicago Sun-Times, May 13, 2002
    http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak/cst-edt-novak13.html [3] The Phantom Link to Iraq
    Newsweek, April 28, 2002
    http://www.msnbc.com/news/744626.asp [4] Atta, Prague, Iraq
    Edward Jay Epstein, May 9, 2002
    http://edwardjayepstein.com/2002question/prague.htm [5] Mr. Atta Goes to Prague
    New York Times, May 9, 2002
    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/09/opinion/09SAFI.html [6] Protecting Saddam
    New York Times, March 18, 2002
    http://www.nci.org/02/03f/18-07.htm [7] Iraqi leads opposition movement from Prague
    Prague Post, April 3, 2002
    http://www.praguepost.com/P02/2002/20403/news7.php [8] No Link Between Hijacker, Iraq Found, U.S. Says
    Washington Post, May 1, 2002
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11966-2002Apr30.html [9] New Clue Fails to Explain Iraq Role in Sept. 11 Attack
    New York Times, December 16, 2001
    http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/16/international/middleeast/16IRAQ.html [10] Czech PM: Atta considered Prague attack
    CNN, November 9, 2001
    http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/11/09/inv.czech.atta/index.html [11] Czech government didn't tell U.S. about hijacker's Iraqi connection until after attacks
    AP, October 28, 2001 [12] Czech PM: Atta considered Prague attack
    CNN, November 9, 2001
    http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/11/09/inv.czech.atta/index.html [13] No Evidence Suspect Met Iraqi in Prague
    New York Times, October 20, 2001
    http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/20/international/europe/20PRAG.html [14] Czechs Confirm Iraqi Agent Met With Terror Ringleader
    New York Times, October 27, 2001
    http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/27/international/middleeast/27IRAQ.html?pagewanted=all [15] New Clue Fails to Explain Iraq Role in Sept. 11 Attack
    New York Times, December 16, 2001
    http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/16/international/middleeast/16IRAQ.html [16] Hijacker 'Given Anthrax Flask by Iraqi Agent'
    The Times of London, October 27, 2001 [17] How Bush Decided That Hussein Must Be Ousted From Atop Iraq
    Wall Street Journal, June 14, 2002
    http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB1024014383232040120-search,00.html [18] Gunning for Saddam; Interview with Mohammed Aldouri
    Frontline, November 8, 2001
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/interviews/aldouri.html [19] Czechs: Hijacker met with Iraqi spy
    Prague Post, May 8, 2002
    http://www.praguepost.com/P02/2002/20508/news3.php [20] The Immigration and Naturalization Service's Contacts With Two September 11 Terrorists
    U.S. Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, May 20, 2002
    http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/special/2002_05/fullreport.pdf [21] UNITED STATES OF AMERICA -v- ZACARIAS MOUSSAOUI
    http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/speeches/mous.pdf
  • Realist
    Realist

    thichi,

    one of many links showing that it was already debunked before the war started.

    http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/10/20/102425.shtml

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    The information is wrong and outdated...

    As an example, the FBI has now stated that the car rental receipts in Florida do not really exist....this alone makes the claim on your link inaccurate...

    You are using NewsMax? lol, you have no shame, Realist

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    UN envoy confirms terrorist meeting Kmonicek says Al-Ani, Atta spoke in Prague





  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    In, fact there never was a retraction, or even modification, from the relevant officials in and supervising the Czech intelligence service. On December 17th, 2001 Gabriela Bartikova, the spokeswomen for the Minister of the Interior, had said "Minister Gross had the information from BIS, and BIS guarantees the information, So we stick by that information." On May 3rd, 2002 referring to the Washington Post-Newsweek allegation, Interior Minister Stanislav Gross stated "I believe the counterintelligence services more than journalists. I draw on the Security Information Service [BIS] information and I see no reason why I should not believe it." He further explained that he had consulted with BIS chief Jiri Ruzek on May 2nd in order to find out whether the Czech intelligence service had any new information that would cast doubt on the meeting. "The answer was that they did not. Therefore, I consider the matter closed,? Gross concluded.

    In other words, to date, Czech intelligence, the only agency anywhere that claimed to monitor the meeting, stood by its guarantee that the atta-al-Ani had taken place.

    What changed in this ping-pong journalism therefore was not any new revelations? or retractions? but the introduction of an anonymous ?senior administration source? with an unknown agenda, whose claim that ?the Czechs? doubted the meeting took place, has now been directly denied by the relevant officials.

  • Realist
    Realist

    it was the first link that popped up ongoogle...this here is from the BBC 5 links below

    http://www.lossless-audio.com/usa/index0.php?page=381428372.htm

    by the way...you have given the best evidence that there was no meeting! if it would be true BUSH BLAIR and co would talk about nothing else!

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Your link names no sources....this is the correct information, man, you are desperate... Realist, here is the latest.... In, fact there never was a retraction, or even modification, from the relevant officials in and supervising the Czech intelligence service. On December 17th, 2001 Gabriela Bartikova, the spokeswomen for the Minister of the Interior, had said "Minister Gross had the information from BIS, and BIS guarantees the information, So we stick by that information." On May 3rd, 2002 referring to the Washington Post-Newsweek allegation, Interior Minister Stanislav Gross stated "I believe the counterintelligence services more than journalists. I draw on the Security Information Service [BIS] information and I see no reason why I should not believe it." He further explained that he had consulted with BIS chief Jiri Ruzek on May 2nd in order to find out whether the Czech intelligence service had any new information that would cast doubt on the meeting. "The answer was that they did not. Therefore, I consider the matter closed,? Gross concluded.

    In other words, to date, Czech intelligence, the only agency anywhere that claimed to monitor the meeting, stood by its guarantee that the atta-al-Ani had taken place.

    What changed in this ping-pong journalism therefore was not any new revelations? or retractions? but the introduction of an anonymous ?senior administration source? with an unknown agenda, whose claim that ?the Czechs? doubted the meeting took place, has now been directly denied by the relevant officials.

  • Realist
    Realist

    thichi,

    here is a recent link from the washington times: interesting over all article...i marked the atta meeting with red.

    http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20040202-075332-7580r.htm

    Commentary: Iraq -- and the Gulf of Tonkin


    By Arnaud de Borchgrave
    UPI Editor at Large

    WASHINGTON, Feb. 2 (UPI) -- The dust is not about to settle over the intelligence failure in Iraq. But it has already blurred our vision about weapons of mass destruction. There is still time to remind ourselves they were not the principal reason for going to war against Saddam Hussein's Iraq; they were the pretext. And that's why irrefutable evidence was not the standard. Axis of evil regime change was the lodestar.

    When this writer first heard from prominent neo-cons in April 2002 that war was no longer a question of "if" but "when," the casus belli had little to do with WMD. The Bush administration, they explained, starkly and simply, had decided to redraw the geopolitical map of the Middle East. The Bush doctrine of pre-emption had become the vehicle for driving axis of evil practitioners out of power. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz made clear last week the U.S. was justified in toppling Saddam irrespective of elusive WMDs.

    The liberation of Iraq, in the neo-con scenario, would be followed by a democratic Iraq that would quickly recognize Israel. This, in turn, would "snowball" -- the analogy only works in the Cedar Mountains of Lebanon and the Golan Heights in Syria -- through the region, bringing democracy from Syria to Egypt and to the sheikdoms, emirates and monarchies of the Gulf. All these new democracies would then embrace Israel and hitch their backward economies to the Jewish state's advanced technology. And Israel could at long last lower its guard and look forward to a generation of peace. That was the vision. WMDs were weapons of mass deception that became the pretext for the grand design. As was a much-ballyhooed, and later discredited, park bench meeting in Prague between an Iraqi intelligence agent and Mohammed Atta, the Sept. 11 Saudi kamikaze.

    The amateur strategists in the neo-con camp knew a lot more about Israel and its need for peace than they did about the law of unintended consequences, writ large in Iraq, and in the Arab world beyond. The neo-cons were not alone in misreading the state of play in Saddam's Baghdad. The dictator was so detached from reality that he was writing heartthrob romance novels and sending them to Deputy Premier Tariq Aziz, the only sophisticated literary person in his entourage, for editorial comment. As for WMDs, his scientists lied to him about the lack of progress in their laboratories and then got more funding for non-existent programs. In a part of the world where to tell the truth is considered the height of stupidity, even Republican Guard commanders were successfully misinformed about mythical WMD capability being in other units than their own.

    The principal intelligence failure was in not understanding the state of decay in the Baath party regime that most probably would have fallen of its own accord with another year of anywhere-anytime-intrusive-inspections throughout the country.

    A cursory study of Iraqi history would have demonstrated that democracy in Iraq without a strong hand at the helm is a recipe for civil war. One-person-one-vote would quickly give the dominant (60 percent) Shiites the majority and a license to run the country in close partnership with the clerical regime that runs neighboring Iran. But this is clearly unacceptable to the Sunnis (20 percent) and the Kurds (20 percent). The Shiites control the oil of the south and the Kurds can easily take possession of the oil of the north. The three Kurdish provinces moved a step closer to a unilateral declaration of independence when twin suicide bombers killed 56 last Sunday at the headquarters of the two main political parties. Kurdish independence would leave the Sunnis high and dry in the center sans oil. Dominant for 85 years, the Sunnis are not about to roll over and accept a state of their own in the middle of the country. And the Shiite clergy has told U.S. authorities it is not interested in a secular, Westernized Iraq.

    The U.S. plan to rescue a unitary state in Iraq with Iowa-type caucuses in 18 provinces was also doomed to failure -- if only because Iraq is not Iowa. It also demonstrated that one-person-one-vote elections are not the sine qua non of democracy the way they are in India, Western Europe and North America.

    President Bush says, "I want the American people to know that I, too, want to know the facts about what happened to WMD in Iraq." Apparently, the president, too, was misinformed about WMD being the reason he ordered U.S. troops into harm's way. Because this was no more the provocation given by the war's architects than the one put forward by the Gulf of Tonkin resolution that led to the escalation of the Vietnam war -- and 58,000 American servicemen killed in action. North Vietnamese gunboats did not attack U.S. warships in the Gulf of Tonkin, any more than Saddam threatened to attack us with his non-existent WMDs.

    So the leitmotiv for Operation Iraqi Freedom was not WMD, but the freedom of Iraq in the larger context of long-range security for Israel. Bush is right to change the rationale for war to isn't-the-world-a-better-place-without-Saddam? Of course it is. Was Iraq ever a threat to the U.S. homeland? Of course it wasn't. But hasn't the U.S. occupation of Iraq provided a force multiplier for al-Qaida. Of course it has. And the world is not a more peaceful place than it was before the occupation of Iraq.

    The armchair strategists who pushed the war envelope in early 2002 dismissed any possibility of an insurgency after the liberation of Iraq. The entire population, according to this improvised conventional wisdom, couldn't wait to join forces with the U.S. Now, two or three U.S. soldiers are killed every day in Iraq; some $200 billion in unbudgeted Iraqi and Afghan costs have been added to the national debt; a resurgent Taliban, fueled by the opium/heroin trade, is spreading its tentacles again in Afghanistan -- all persuasive talking points for Democratic candidates on the stump.

    The Bush doctrine of pre-emption is now badly frayed at the seams. Operations Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom have stretched deployable U.S. forces, including the guards and reserves, to the point where another pre-emption campaign would break the system -- and bring back the draft.

    A steady stream of would-be jihadis, or Islamist holy warriors, is making its way into Iraq across the unmarked, mostly desert, borders of Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Camel caravans trekking from the Saudi kingdom all look the same, whether they are carrying dates or detonators. It was also the very same terrain Desert Storm troopers used to turn Saddam's flank with a historic Hail Mary pass. Saudi Arabia's 150,000-strong army could patrol more aggressively some 400 miles of a desert border that is largely unguarded. But the Saudis now worry more about internal threats to the regime than anything happening on their far-flung borders in the Arabian Peninsula.

    Iraq's non-existent weapons of mass destruction were never a threat to anyone. But they have already struck a devastating blow to the credibility of the Bush White House. The doctrine of pre-emption becomes inoperable without unimpeachable intelligence accepted by all as the coin of the realm.

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