Is this Completely Apostate

by redline 61 Replies latest jw friends

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  patio34

  Redline,

  Interesting post. I'm a JW, have been for 28 years, raised 4 children as JWs, etc. I do not agree with the WTBS anymore, but reject the slanderous label 'apostate.' And, as has been pointed out, it's not the Biblical definition.

  The point about pedophiles and the NBC Dateline program is not that there ARE some, but they have been shielded by the WTBS from the law. This is what the WTBS has frequently criticized and condemned the Catholics for.

  HadEnough, That is such a good expression that you were 'snug and smug' as a JW. Sums it up!

  Pat
• 

  SixofNine

  Redline, you said,

  I do refer to the truth, not as a social community, but in reference to the religion that I practice.

  That is exactly what I was refering to. If you want to be an honest person, you can't go about calling the Jehovah's Witness religion the "truth". Truth is far to important a word, especially for those who believe in God, to be abused that way. I hate to say it, but when you know something isn't the truth, yet you call it that, you are a liar. I'm sure you don't want to think of yourself as a liar.
• 

  Copernicus

  Redline – welcome to our little home.

  I was an active JW for many years, but haven’t attended meetings for some time now. Several years ago I too was stumbling around the Internet, and found the old H2O board when it was in its hay-day.

  What got me started? Why did I look upon the forbidden fruit? I began using the net to gain research material for public talks. And low and behold, I discovered that so many of the quotes used by the society were incomplete, taken out of context, or simply refashioned in a way that allowed them to gain credence by using “worldly” sources to support their message. I wondered. . . why all the subterfuge? Why would they do this? What was there to hide? After a little more digging, I saw that this seemed to extend to many of their works; the Creation book being one of the most unarguably blatant examples.

  In any case. . .

  New compared to most, baptized 4 years, but still strong in my resolution.

  I seriously doubt that you’re ready for what you’re going to find here. You are probably still to new to be interested in challenging your belief system, or may in fact think that it is unchangeable. But nobody “drags” anybody into this site. You are only a mouse click away from exiting, and free to anonymously explore and draw your own conclusions.

  I think you’ll find that many of the most disturbing posts come from your active brethren. Maybe you can do a little better, huh?

  I’ll close with a thought I’d voiced previously in response to another poster some time ago:

  “I too independently considered the explanation that Bobby is offering you [that we have become the equivalent of the Israelites in the days of Jesus]. On the surface, it seemed to make sense and placated me for a short while. But really, where it failed the litmus test for me was my inability to find a biblical example of where Jehovah had intentionally (or otherwise) mislead and lied to people, and then told them that their reaction after discovering this was a test of their faith, as we were taught to believe. If God does hate lies, why would he entrap his supposed followers in an organization rife with them, and hinge their salvation on a willingness to propagate same? I couldn’t live with that aspect of the argument, though as I said, I did try for a time.”

  Food for thought. But don’t take my word for it. Keep your eyes open and find out for yourself. Just pretend you’re a Beroean (how bad can that be?) and the rest is easy.

  Have fun. . .

  Copernicus
• 

  waiting

  Howdy Redline,

  I hope you stay around to visit - all kinds of persons here. You made an interesting comment when starting here:

  , baptized 4 years, but still strong in my resolution.

  Why the phrase "but still"? Why wouldn't you be still strong? If you have *The Truth* as you state, there would no need to be putting a time frame on your resolution. For that matter, why the resolution to remain within *The Truth* if it is *The Truth.* If it is *The Truth*, it should hold up to independent study outside of WTBTS literature. Which, btw, is how the WTBTS tells us to learn about other religions - even our own before coming into *The Truth.* The WTBTS teaches others about their own religions - the WTBT does not tell a Catholic to go to a Catholic priest to learn about Catholicsm. So, jw's, by the fact that they are a free people, have the freedom to learn about Jehovah's Witnesses from outside sources just as others learn about their own religions, right?

  I am a jw sister of 30 years, inactive for one year. After buying our local KH (they wanted to build a new one) and several illegal components to the sale were found by two different attorneys we had review the sale - we wrote to the WTBTS Service Dept (we had an elder from different congregation call them - and they said to speak to no one locally, send our information directly to them. The Serv. Dept said that if there was anything to our claim - the local elders would cover it up.)

  We sent it - they sent it over to Legal Dept., after six months of nothing but a letter saying that they received our letter, elder called again. They asked who he had spoken to the first time? He said he didn't know as they refuse to give names in Service Dept. They responded, "well, how can we help you if you don't know who you talked to?"

  After our attorney received a dismissal letter from the General Associate Counsel of the WTBTS, our attorney then called Legal Dept. and was treated to an hour long sermon on Mathew by said same General Associate Counsel. "They (us) didn't follow the steps set forth in Mathew - as they didn't go back to the elders to set it straight." Oh, yes we did - and we taped it. "Well, then they should have gone to the Circuit Overseer." - But we were told to not to talk to anyone, and send information to Service Dept! "Who told you that?" Service Dept. "Specifically *who* told you that?" We don't know because they refuse to give names. "Well, then you really can't *prove* that, now can you."

  We, trying to be obedient jw's, contacted our Circuit Overseer. He agreed to call Service Dept. "Who did you talk to." [b/b] Again it started.........we gave him our assigned file number. He called but never called us back.

  We called him - and he told us that [b]"the Service Dept. said I was not to talk to you. They said that they would deal with you."

  And he amazingly told us this.

  We're still waiting for the Service Department to *deal with us* - thus my user name - waiting.

  waiting, a long time now.
• 

  Had Enough

  redline, you say:

  Witness religion started out with some awkward beliefs, but over time refined them as more information became available, so you will find discrepancies within the literature. This does not however mean that the society is hypocritical, only that the society admits when its wrong, and updates the information as a growing process.

  Yes I've heard that many times since the 1950's onward called "new light", but one thing I never could understand was if all the things that came from the governing body were the direction given directly to them by holy spirit from God, why did He give them wrong direction or allow them to get it wrong if He wanted them to direct his people?

  Yes I know they are imperfect men and maybe "didn't see it clearly until later" but surely God would have made sure His organization directing His people on earth would be worshipping Him "in truth" and not with wrong thoughts.

  How many times have they flip-flopped back and forth on a teaching?

  How many families were adversely affected by sons/husbands having to serve prison time because alternative service for those conscripted to the army was not allowed and now it is? Does God change His mind? Can He not make Himself clear enough to these men?

  Is God hypocritical in letting His people be beaten, raped or killed in Malawi for not buying a political card and yet allow the brothers in Mexico to bribe officials to give them a card saying they have served their time in the army so they didn't have to go to jail? The society was.

  I'm not criticizing God...don't get me wrong. I'm questioning their claim to being directed by God when the get, not just a few minor things wrong at the beginning of the religion, but rather so many things wrong ever since the beginning right down to now.

  Many of us lived through our growing up years from the 50's onward believing what they told us about not ever growing old..the end is any day now...it would be better not to have children, buy houses, no need for life insurance, no need for retirement savings, etc.

  And no they did not apologize for blowing up importance of 1975. They hammered it into us as being so important and when it turned out wrong they blamed us for being over-enthusiastic. If you want direct quotes, I know we can find them for you.

  We all grew up believing that the end would come in the generaion from 1914....now that has changed too.

  These are only the tip of the iceburg. I have pages and pages saved of the things they have gotten wrong and in many cases dileberately mislead us on. Why would God let them make so many mistakes if peoples lives are affected so strongly? God would not purposely let those He is supposedly directing, mislead His sheep. Could it be that the governing body is not what it claims to be?

  Had Enough
• 

  ElwinRansom

  Hello everyone ... Let me just pose a basic question.
  Does the New Testament actually say that there will be a Governing Body at all?
  I believe WTBS cites some passages from Acts describing how Paul and Barnabas went from Antioch to Jerusalem to ask the advice of some other Christians on a theological issue (law vs. grace), and claim that this shows the existence of a GB from the very outset.
  But this isn't terribly convincing to me. If there really was a GB in Jerusalem, wouldn't Paul have been going around to all those churches he planted, saying "Look, there's this bunch of guys in Jerusalem, you have to obey them?" In fact, he was going around saying, "Look, God's one and only Son has died for your sins, and you need to receive Him, become a new creation in Him." Nothing about others, except love them and help them when they need it.
  The core of the WTBS claim should be pervasive in the Bible. But it doesn't seem like it is; a different message seems to be pervasive instead. I recall reading something written by a fellow by the name of Leonard Chretien: "Jehovah loves you with a love the Watchtower has not told you about."
  Thoughts?
• 

  Copernicus

  Elwin:

  If there really was a GB in Jerusalem, wouldn't Paul have been going around to all those churches he planted, saying "Look, there's this bunch of guys in Jerusalem, you have to obey them?" In fact, he was going around saying, "Look, God's one and only Son has died for your sins, and you need to receive Him, become a new creation in Him."

  I think you answered your own question here. And very well too I might add, ha, ha. It's pretty obvious when you think about it. Not to mention the fact that he didn't wait to get approval from some centralized "writing committee" before firing off his episitles.

  Wait a while, I'm sure they'll be more to come on this one.
• 

  wasasister

  RedLine: I won't try to convince you that your stand is wrong. In fact, it may be the right one for you. Nor will I tell you my story, or why I post and read here. If you are really interested, I'll share it with you another time. Suffice it to say that I am neither disfellowshipped nor disassociated.

  I urge you to reconsider leaving this place. Besides those who post, there are many who "lurk", people who have doubts or are curious and are seeking information or support. For the benefit of those innocent ones, why not stay and add your voice? So far, the Jehovah's Witness advocates on this site have been unkind, rude, insulting, and not generally helpful to those who are suffering. Perhaps you could provide kind and reasonable responses to the questions posed. I promise you: if you keep your tone respectful and do not resort to personal attacks, you will be granted the same courtesy.

  You have plenty to gain and nothing to lose, unless you fear learning the Truth about the Truth. If Jehovah's Witnesses really are the only true religion, blessed by God, it can stand the test of scrutiny.

  I, for one, would welcome your thoughts. Will you consider it?

  Sincerely,
  Wasasister
• 

  redline

  Several of you have brought up the point of my inexperience in the Truth comparatively to most of you. I cant deny that point, but when I had said "but still strong in my resolution", I was using it as a qualifier, so you would know my stand. Since I had figured that many of you would be inundating me with information regarding the Society, so I felt you needed to know where I stood. Not so much that I was vulnerable in my beliefs, but was simply here via many misguided links.

  Copernicus:
  Facilis descensus averno. Forbidden fruit, this was the same temptations that lead adam and eve off to destruction. Your mentioning that originally you had sought it out innocently at first, (no comments on the fact I am here as well) but then rejected your prior beliefs because of what you had stumbled across. That the society had deceptively left out information or changed it to fit the context. I believe that there are many sides to all arguments, that we could easily bring out versus that when used in one conversation would have a completely altered meaning. Of course your going to find instances where someone can manipulate an idea into an almost believable form. That without adequate study, and meditation on your end you could give into their "" argument. Ignorance is not a justifiable excuse, but is used with most religions today, I skeptically looked into the Jehovah's Witness Organization when it was first proposed to me. Not giving in on what I had already felt was factual, but then found that with their answers, and my study, that this was indeed the correct religion. But if I pause and look around, there are hordes of people trying to disway anyone associates with it away, and this is to be expected of anything that may hold value.

  So rather then saturate myself with other peoples opinions, I usually stick with my own, and the Organization. This is not completely mistake free (on my opinion), but over time the answers usually come.

  More then likely I couldn't stand up to a Theological Conversation with most of you, due to my lack of knowledge and experience. I however am strong on what I have established, and feel that my foundation is strong, and based on truths. I am sure most of you felt the same way before turning, but the love of the greater number was prophesied to start to cool as the end drew near.

  Most of the comments used to point out the improbity of the Society, I've already heard and researched.

  Had Enough brought out many, but its just the stand that people within the organization have to make regarding political gestures. Time frames of the end were often constructed within the flock, not given directly from the society. This is human error, and will happen, and has happened through-out history. Why would the Jehovah's Witness be completely exempt from it?

  Again there are personalities with the congregations, some Elders are kind and humble, while other may be pretentious and unjust in their dealings. We are plagued with imperfections, and to continue to fault the whole because of the few is ignorant and unfair. Even in my few years I have seen that, but cannot deny that my own actions have been similar, so cannot point fingers when I made my own bad steps.
• 

  Amazing

  HI Redline:

  You said, "My question is if this forum is for former witness, or those that just disagree with the religion as a whole. Then why use the description "Online Meeting area for brothers & sisters" other then to bait witness to this place?"

  There is no intent to 'bait.' The Nov99 KM was explicit to JWs that they stay off of these sites. Some JWs who had sites supporting the WTS religion, were asked to take their sites down. Some few, like Witness-net continue on in spite of the WTS directive.

  The sites like this one and H20, E20, J20 are about 'open' discussion about JWs and JWs are invited. Some few, such as yourself do join in anyway, and you are certainly welcome.

  you continued, "Your all right, the organization does caution about the Internet, and this would be the reason why. Not that you have all the right answers, and they are trying to protect their interests."

  You are correct in saying the the WTS is trying to protect its interests. That is why they fear JWs reading and discussing with those who have left. Because thier brand of what they call 'truth' will not stand to honest, truthful discussion. The WTS is very frightened about the free flow of information made possible by the Interent.

  You continued, "More accurately that most of you are trying to drag people from the religion, so dont associate with those that want to destroy you."

  No one, and I mean no one on this or any other forum want to see JWs destroyed. This is a fruadulent allegation made by the WTS leaders. Further, if you and other JWs want to stay in the religion, please do. But, if you are searching around and open to honest discussion, then you are welcomes here, and you will find it most challenging.

  You said, "So my visit is short, and beyond my better judgment."

  That is your decision. But, your judgment to visit is an indication that you want to know something, and that deep down you know that something is not right with the WTS.

  You mention that you have been a JW for 4 years now. I was a JW, MS, And Elder during my 27 years of total association. I started in the late 1960s when the WTS was pushing the nearness of Armageddon by 1975. Like all their previous predictions, it came and went. I was loyal anyway, and stayed on until May 1992 when I resigned my position. I remained casually associated until 1995 when I heard a rumor that I was Disassociated. I had written the Elders and offerred to meet with them, but they never responded. Why? because they themselves know that "IT" is not the truth, and could not afford to admit that to my face. They are the same ones whom I reported to the authorities because they were concelaing a child molester.

  Which brings me to my last point. If you have children, you need to be aware that the WTS religion protects molesters by not reporting them to the authorities. As a result, many thousands of JW children are sexually molested. I know that the WTS and Elders publically say they believe that molesters are evil, but their failure to report them and warn the congregatons is a crime. I have first hand experience with these, and speak with considerable experience.

  Soon, the news media will deal with this in public, and many JWs are going to have to come to terms with the truth, or live in denail and hide their eyes. - Amazing