Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze 128 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    How else are we to physically experience pain otherwise unless we get a new body?

    @Halcon

    All we have to go on is the word of God. Since it was freely quoted as true from a man who resurrected himself from the dead, I have sound reason to believe it. He says dead souls can do and experience lots of things..... without a body.

    Rev 6 - And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    Souls can remember, talk, reason, ask questions, feel emotion, justice and rest. Presumably they can feel pain as well as comfort.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @Vanderhoven7

    1. Where are the children of the Sodomites?

    Look up the term "limbus puerorum".

    2. Where did the Pharisees get their ideas about Abraham's Bosom and torment after death if they are not found in the OT?

    That "it is not found" is not true, since many OT verses refer to this, on the other hand, Christ did not criticize the theology of the Pharisees (Matthew 23:1-3), only their morals, Acts 23:8 specifically suggests that the apostle Paul specifically identified with the Pharisaic doctrine regarding the soul/spirit.

    On the other hand, at most it refutes the Protestant "sola Scriptura" principle, since according to this, divine revelation is a broader category than the Scriptures, Jesus and Paul also accepted oral and written traditions outside of the Bible. Protestants, defending sola Scriptura, will argue that Jesus and Paul applied the authority of the Old Testament. This is true, however, they also resorted to other authorities that were outside the written revelation. For example:

    A. Mt 2:23: The reference that "He shall be called a Nazarene" is not found in the Old Testament, yet it is said "the prophets spoke" this. Thus, a prophecy considered "the word of God" was transmitted orally, not through the Scriptures.
    B. Mt 23:2-3: Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a lawful and obligatory authority based on "Moses' seat," yet this expression (or concept) is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament. This is found in the (originally oral) Mishnah, which teaches the order of "teaching succession" stemming from Moses.
    And two more examples from the Apostle Paul:
    C. In 1 Corinthians 10:4, Paul refers to a rock that "followed" the Jews in the Sinai desert. The Old Testament, in the related sections where Moses strikes a rock to produce water (Exodus 17:1-7; Numbers 20:2-13), says nothing about this miraculous journey, however, rabbinical tradition speaks of it.
    D. 2 Timothy 3:8: "Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses". The Old Testament sections related to this (Exodus 7:8 ff.) do not mention these two men, nor are they found elsewhere in the Old Testament.
  • Halcon
    Halcon

    Souls can remember, talk, reason, ask questions, feel emotion, justice and rest. Presumably they can feel pain as well as comfort.

    'Presumably' puts us back in the terrain of uncertainty and interpretation at best. Meaning your guess is as good as mine. I mean to point out the uncertainty of the interpretation versus pointing out who is wrong and who isn't. I think it's a good discussion.

    Separating the soul from the body is still not the same as a dead soul. As you quoted, a soul can do a lot of things. However, all the things pointed out in the Revelation scripture you quoted don't require a physical body. God, the angels, demons all can talk , feel emotions, reason and rest despite having no physical body.

    What does require a physical body according to the Bible? One example is sex. The angels transformed their non physical bodies into physical ones in order to feel the pleasure that only a physical body could feel. Jesus also stated that in heaven no one gets married therefore no one has sex either.

    This is to say that God created the physical body for very specific purposes in mind. God further emphasized and reinforced the separation between physical and non physical bodies by prohibiting the angels to become human for the purpose of sex.

    The human sensible experience is contrasted from the spiritual one (although both are living souls) repeatedly in the scriptures. Both experiences are given legitimacy, as highlighted by the need to offer a perfect human being in the form of Jesus in exchange for an imperfect Adam. Literal physical red blood, not symbolic or spiritual blood, had to be spilled.

    But we are to presume that in a burning hell this contrast is suddenly abolished?

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Re: souls under the alter Rev.6:9

    Very difficult to see bodiless souls, mortal or otherwise. This is obviously a vision describing the suffering church. The martyr's cry is akin to the blood of Able crying out for justice.(Gen.4:10)

    Ellicott's commentary on this verse reads as follows

    The word “souls” has been made a resting-place for an argument respecting the intermediate state. There is no ground for this: it is quite beside the object of the seal, which simply exhibits the sufferings of Christ’s people as the necessary accompaniment of the progress of the gospel. These sufferings are because of the Word of God and the testimony which they held. It was because of the Word of God and the testimony that the sacred seer himself suffered (Revelation 1:9). The words here remind us that the same issue which St. John fought, the suffering ones of after ages would be fighting. Their witness and his was the God-man; to this testimony they clung. They were not ashamed of Christ, or of His words, and they suffered for their courage and fidelity.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    ABRAHAM'S BOSOM: The enigma of the righteous being in Sheol (Hades) along with the wicked, was tentatively resolved during the intertestamental period by compartmentalizing Sheol into two distinct regions. In Jesus' day, the part of Hades where the righteous were detained was commonly referred to by the Pharisees as Abraham's Bosom. This was a place of rest and banqueting where the souls of the righteous enjoyed "intimate fellowship with the father of the race (Abraham), who is still alive and blessed in death."

    PLACE OF TORMENT: The idea of "torment" being associated with Hades was also clearly a part of the Pharisaic tradition of Jesus' day. This traditional belief which similarly developed during the intertestamental period is attested to and quite graphically elaborated on in much of the the religious folklore prevalent at the time.

    A point worthy of note here, is that when Jesus used the terms "Abraham's Bosom", and "Torment" in reference to Hades, he was employing terms and concepts not rooted in scripture, but in rabbinical tradition. He was using terms fully comprehended by the Pharisees and clearly endorsed by their teachings about the afterlife. And equally important, Abraham's Bosom, and Torment were terms the Pharisees used regularly to justify their total neglect of the poor.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    HISTORICAL NOTE: According to Vine's OT. Dictionary, "Sheol was not understood to be a place of punishment, but simply the ultimate resting place of all mankind". The idea that Sheol was a place of conscious punishment became predominant during the intertestamental period with the influence of Babylonian and subsequently Greek culture and philosophy upon Judaism. The apparent enigma of the righteous also being in Sheol was resolved in some but not all rabbinical circles, by subdividing or compartmentalizing Sheol into two distinct regions. The wicked were hopelessly consigned to an area of Sheol where punishments were applied commensurate with one's performance in life, while the righteous were segregated and awaiting redemption in a part of Sheol having paradisiacal dimensions, i.e.,Abraham's Bosom. As The New International Dictionary Of New Testament Theology states, "With the infiltration of the Greek doctrine of immortality of the soul, paradise becomes the dwelling place of the righteous during the intermediate state."


    Sheol, the hell of the OT is "the common fate of all mortals". Aside from the hope and promise of redemption for the righteous from Sheol's grip, there is no scriptural basis for distinguishing the lot of the righteous from that of the unrighteous. Death then, becomes the universal enemy; it is not presented as a release to heavenly life and immortality. Rather, death is itself "the problem - for which resurrection is the answer". 7 Further, conscious punishment, regardless of duration, is not explicitly taught in any of the OT Sheol passages. If some kind of sustained torment is being implicitly taught therein, this theme certainly remains undeveloped.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    According to the Old Testament, all the dead arrive at a place called Sheol, which can also simply mean pit or grave/tomb (Psalms 16:10; 28:1; 30:4; 86:13, etc.; Isaiah 14:15; 38:17,18; cf. Jonah 2:7; Ezekiel 26:20), and sometimes even Abaddon. Originally, therefore, concepts relating to the underworld were closely connected with notions related to the grave, where the dead were buried. The Septuagint (LXX) and the New Testament (in Greek) refer to the underworld as Hades (Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23, etc.); in the modern translations, it is usually rendered as underworld or sometimes hell.

    In Babylonian literature, the underworld is located under the earth, at the upper side of the world ocean. It can be reached by descending into the depths of the earth and going north as far as possible. Before arriving, one must cross a river, the water of death. In the Ugaritic texts and the Bible, the underworld is also beneath the earth, or deep within the earth (Psalms 63:10). Because the earth opened up, Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, along with their people, fell alive into the underworld (Numbers 16:30-33). Job imagines the underworld as the lowest place of the created world (cf. Job 11:8), reachable through the bed of the primordial waters on which the earth floats (26:5; 38:16ff.). Thus, the underworld is the last part of the three-tiered universe (above the earth, on the earth, under the earth; or, heaven, earth, underworld; cf. Exodus 20:4; Philippians 2:10). The Bible does not mention that the entrance to the underworld is to be found in the north, nor does it speak of the river of the underworld. The rivers mentioned in 2 Samuel 22:5 and Psalms 18:5 symbolize trouble and misery, which accompany man on the way to the underworld, according to the parallelism of thought (18:6: snares).

    The Babylonians imagined the underworld as a city surrounded by 7 walls, with 14 gates, and a palace in the center where the queen of the underworld, Ereshkigal, and her husband, Nergal, live. The gate of the underworld (or its key) is mentioned in Job 38:17; Psalms 9:14; 107:18; Wisdom 16:13; Sirach 51:6; Isaiah 38:10; Matthew 16:18; Revelation 1:18.

    The Greek translation of Job 38:17 also mentions the guardian of the gate of Hades. The king of the underworld does not appear in the Scriptures, but Psalms 49:15 speaks of death as a shepherd. The Lord's dominion extends to the underworld as well (Job 26:6; Psalms 139:8; Proverbs 15:11; Isaiah 7:11; Amos 9:2). Complete darkness reigns in the underworld (Job 10:21ff.; 17:13; Psalms 88:7,13); its inhabitants never see the light of day again (49:20); night rises from the underworld (Wisdom 17:13). Besides darkness, its characteristics include dust (Job 17:16; 20:11; Psalms 30:10; 146:4; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2) and silence (Psalms 94:17; 115:17).

    Just like in Babylon, in Israel too, the underworld is a country from which there is no return (Job 7:9; 10:21; cf. 14:12); its inhabitants are condemned to eternal inactivity (Ecclesiastes 9:10), they have no part in joy or pleasure (Sirach 14:11-17), they are unaware of the fate of the living or anything that happens on earth (Job 14:21ff.; 21:21; Ecclesiastes 9:5; Isaiah 63:16). God is not praised in the underworld (Psalms 6:6; 30:10; 115:17; Sirach 17:27; Isaiah 38:18). The dead have no vitality, they are "powerless," it can be said of them that they are no more (Psalms 39:14; Sirach 17:28). Like in the Epic of Gilgamesh, in Isaiah too, the dead are the prey of worms (cf. Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:48). The underworld is the place of oblivion (Psalms 88:13): neither the dead remember the living, nor do the living remember the dead. At best, rest can be found (Job 3:17ff.; Sirach 30:17), hence the underworld can sometimes seem more attractive than life.

    The underworld is the final resting place for every person; rich and poor, lords, kings, and slaves, old and young, "all rest together" (Job 3:13-19; 30:23-24; Psalms 89:49; Ecclesiastes 6:6). Christ also descended to the underworld after His death (Romans 10:7; Ephesians 4:9; 1 Peter 3:19; The Harrowing of Hell). Although initially the fate of the good and the bad did not differ, Ezekiel 32:17-32 already makes a distinction between the fate of Israel's enemies and that of the ancient heroes. Isaiah 24:22; Sirach 21:10: the underworld has a punitive aspect (e.g., prison. Cf. 1 Peter 3:19; Jude 6; Revelation 20:7).

    In the Old Testament, Sheol is not yet a place of punishment but simply the dwelling place of the dead. There is no mention of differing fates within it. However, with the development of the belief in resurrection, the concept also transforms. There is now a separate place for the righteous and for the wicked, with the latter suffering torments. Thus in later Judaism, the conception developed that God assigns different fates in the underworld to the righteous and the wicked. Therefore, the concept Sheol used to be understood as the universal gathering place for the dead; both the righteous and the wicked end up there, later distinguished from the concept of Gehenna (הִנֹּ֑ם גֵּ֥י Valley of Hinnom, southwest of Jerusalem, a detestable place due to the worship of Molech, which King Josiah defiled (2 Kings 23:10). Jeremiah places the punishment of rebellious Israel there (Jeremiah 7:31, 19:6); moreover, it generally serves as the place of punishment for God's enemies (Isaiah 66:24).

    Consequently, it was assumed that the Sheol is divided into parts. The Ethiopian Book of Enoch recognizes 3 dark and 1 light parts (22:9), calling the dwelling place of the righteous the Garden of Life (61:12). In the late Jewish literature outside the Bible, Sheol is already the dwelling place of the wicked (Philo, Book of Enoch, 4 Maccabees). The writings of the Essenes already speak of fire and darkness. Another image is the fire of the Valley of Hinnom. Near Jerusalem, this valley was where garbage was burned, due to its already poor reputation. At one time, misguided Jews offered sacrifices there to Molech, the pagan deity. In the prophets, the fire of the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) became a symbol of God's punishment (Jeremiah 7:32; 19:6). From Isaiah 66:24 comes the assertion that "their fire shall not be quenched, and their worm shall not die" (Mark 9:47).

    A similar idea is found in the New Testament. Luke 16:12: Lazarus rests in Abraham's bosom, separated by a chasm from the other part of the underworld where the rich man suffers. 23:43: the righteous go to Paradise (cf. Ethiopian Book of Enoch 60:8.23). In the New Testament, Gehenna is always the place of eternal punishment after judgment. According to Jesus' preaching, it was prepared not only for Satan and his angels but also for all who do not repent or persist in their sins (Matthew 25:41). Both John the Baptist and later Jesus mention the unquenchable fire (Matthew 3:12; 18:8). Hence we find such terms as the fire of Gehenna (Matthew 5:22; 18:9) or the fiery furnace (Matthew 13:42). The torments are characterized by weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12; 13:42; 22:13; 25:30). Revelation 14:20; 19:20; 21:8 also adds the image of the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah, hence the mention of the lake of fire and sulfur. Paul speaks more of eternal destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9; 1 Timothy 6:9), ruin (Romans 9:22; Philippians 3:19), and perdition (2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 1:18; 2 Corinthians 2:15). However, these expressions do not provide any closer detail about the state of the damned. The abyss (Revelation 9:1; 11:7; 20:1) and Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4) are more temporary prisons for fallen angels.

    "Abraham's bosom" refers to Abraham embracing the saved believers, a motif based on the parable of the rich man and the poor man Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31). The Greek word in Luke 16:22 means "womb," but the entire expression alludes to dining with Abraham (cf. John 13:23; Matthew 8:11) or, more generally, to the loving community that is the share of the pious person in the Kingdom of God. This is called in theology "limbus Patrum" or 'the limbo of the Fathers,' the place where the righteous who died before Christ resided, but could not enter into salvation before His crucifixion. However, Christ's descent into hell brought them redemption, and this limbus ceased to exist.

    "Paradise," originally just the dwelling place of the first humans; on the Savior's lips, it could only be the place of the Old Testament saved (Luke 23:43), the same which elsewhere He calls Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22), which after the scriptural era is also called the limbo of the fathers (limbus Patrum). Since this realm ceases to exist after the entrance of the Old Testament saved into heaven, this term in later Christian usage, it refers to heaven.

    Christ's Harrowing of Hell follows from His divinity: it signifies that He has always had, and continues to have, authority over death and the underworld. The term "Harrowing of Hell" does not refer to the place of punishment for the damned, but to the kingdom of the dead, where all deceased souls are found. According to Old Testament revelation, the dead are in Sheol, in the land of darkness, and their only claim to existence is that God knows and accounts for them ("I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob"). God's power is absolute even in the realm of the dead (Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:11). With the growth of belief in the resurrection and the coming of the Messiah, the messianic-eschatological hope extended to the world of the dead as well. In the New Testament, the premise was given at Jesus' resurrection that redemption also benefited those who had lived and died before Him. Relevant New Testament passages include: Mt 12:40; 27:51; Lk 23:42; Acts 2:24; Rom 10:7; 1Pt 3:18; 4:6; Heb 13:20; Rev 1:18.

    Through His resurrection and escape from the kingdom of the dead, Christ broke the power of death and the underworld (the realm of the dead). That's why Revelation 1:18 states that He holds the keys to death and the underworld. According to Scripture, the underworld, which consists of several parts (cf. Lk 16:19-31; Hades), assigns different places (fates) to the righteous and the wicked (retribution). The Creed, in its traditional interpretation, states that Jesus descended to the part of the underworld where the Old Testament righteous awaited their redemption (limbus Patrum or edge of Hell).

    The Church Fathers developed the theology of Jesus' Harrowing of Hell from both a soteriological and christological perspective. They distinguished between the righteous who died before Christ and the damned. Christ brought the good news to the righteous, thus saving them through the proclamation of the Word, and there is also a notion that He granted them baptism. According to another interpretation, while Christ's body lay in the tomb, the Logos, the Son, went to the dead (according to some Fathers, He went down to them in His full redemptive form), thus extending redemption to them as well.

    The phrase "descended into hell" as part of the baptismal creed s first mentioned by Pontianus.

    According to the full theological interpretation, Christ's "descent" is nothing other than the experience of death itself. The Church testifies through its faith that Christ truly died, specifically our death. He took on the entire human condition, and accepting death was the expression of complete obedience. He fully embraced the mission received from the Father, to glorify Him with His human life. At the same time, it also expressed that He is with us in death and can lead us out of the curse of death.

    The Catholic Church did not accept Calvin's view that Christ's soul also took upon itself the torments of hell, and thus saved us from damnation by enduring punishment. When Christ, embracing death, shared in the fate of creation and then passed into the state of glorification, it also indicated that redemption has a cosmic effect: His resurrection leads the entire cosmos into glory.

    With the crucifixion, the work of redemption on the merit-earning side was completed; thereafter, it was only about the allocation of the supernatural values matured in the sacrifice of the cross and their triumphant enforcement. Scripture (especially 1 Peter 3) leaves no doubt that the Savior proclaimed redemption to the souls in the underworld, that is, he made them feel and validated the first effects of the now completed redemption.

    One should not think here of the damned, to whom God's mercy no longer speaks; but, according to the unanimous opinion of the Church Fathers, it concerns those who were awaiting the beatific vision of God but were restrained from it before the objective work of redemption was completed (limbus Patrum). This state and fate are nicely symbolized by the law of the cities of refuge in the Old Testament: one who fled there was secured against pursuers, they could no longer be killed; but they could not leave the city of refuge until the high priest of that time died (Numbers 35:25).

    When the Apostle Peter talks about the "unbelievers" in Noah's days, he likely refers to those who fundamentally turned to God under the weight of the unprecedented calamities of the flood. A good portion of the eastern Greek Church Fathers include among these the pagans who lived according to the law of reason and conscience (Socrates, Plato, etc.), while the western Latin Church Fathers, with Augustine, only consider the righteous of the Old Testament; and this view has become the general opinion. Thus, in the Harrowing of Hell, the Savior first distributes the fruits of redemption; he begins to exercise dominion earned through death over the treasures of redemption and the souls. The Harrowing of Hell is the first great act of Christ's royal beneficence. As soon as He appeared in the underworld, the land of sorrow became a paradise; as the Savior Himself told the thief on the right: "Today you will be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43.)

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    "Amen ... today ... in paradise"[edit]

    The phrase translated "Amen, I say to you, today you will be in paradise" in Luke 23:43 ("Ἀμήν σοι λέγω σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ."[16] Amén soi légo sémeron met' emoû ése en tôi paradeísoi) is disputed in a minority of versions and commentaries. The Greek manuscripts are without punctuation, so attribution of the adverb "today" to the verb "be", as "Amen I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise" (the majority view), or the verb "say", as "Amen I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise" (the minority view), is dependent on analysis of word order conventions in Koine Greek. The majority of ancient Bible translations also follow the majority view, with only the Aramaic language Curetonian Gospels offering significant testimony to the minority view.

    It seems that Martha held to the minority view.

  • aqwsed12345
  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    The emphasis in this text is on the word ‘today’ and should read, ‘Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.’ The promise was made on that day and it was to be fulfilled later. This is a characteristic of Oriental speech implying that the promise was made on a certain day and would surely be kept.” Gospel Light​—Comments on the Teachings of Jesus From Aramaic and Unchanged Eastern Customs, pp. 303-304

    It seems that Martha knew when she would see her brother again.

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