Muhammad is my savior!

by d0rkyd00d 60 Replies latest jw friends

  • JohnClarinet
    JohnClarinet

    Dear THP,

    Re:

    Savages? While the pagans were sacrificing their children to their gods, the Jews were practising a more civilized sacrifice.

    You:
    That my friend is a missrepresentation of the truth ie. a lie.
    Judges chapter 11 says from verse 30:
    30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
    31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD’S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. {whatsoever…: Heb. that which cometh forth, which shall come forth} {and…: or, or I will offer it, etc
    32 So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.
    33 And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel. {the plain: or, Abel}
    34 And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter. {beside…: or, he had not of his own either son or daughter: Heb. of himself}
    35 And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.
    36 And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.
    37 And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows. {go up…: Heb. go and go down}
    38 And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.
    39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel, {custom: or, ordinance}
    40 That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year. {yearly: Heb. from year to year} {to lament: or, to talk with}
    Did you notice how he carried out his vow. This honourable man presents a more civilised sacrifice, yes or no.
    I would like to see you deal with this.

    Me:
    The issue here is not the sacrifice of a child, if it were then certainly God would have instructed it to the Jews. But do you see any? Certainly not! Therefore this case isn't about sacrifices but of carelessness in making vows. See Ecc 5:2-6,
    2 Be not rash with your mouth, nor let your heart be hasty to utter a word before God, for God is in heaven, and you upon earth; therefore let your words be few.
    3 For a dream comes with much business, and a fool's voice with many words.
    4 When you vow a vow to God, do not delay paying it; for he has no pleasure in fools. Pay what you vow.
    5 It is better that you should not vow than that you should vow and not pay.
    6 Let not your mouth lead you into sin, and do not say before the messenger that it was a mistake; why should God be angry at your voice, and destroy the work of your hands?
    Jephthah need not had made such a rash vow if he had enough faith to know that God is with him (just as God is with Joshua, see Josh 1:5). Did God demanded a child sacrifice? Certainly not! It's Jephthah's own mistake. Instead, he had to make a careless vow just to be sure that God is with him. We should heed the wise words of Ecc 5:2-6, let us not make careless vows but have faith in God instead.

    As for child sacrifices practised outside God's children the Israelites please refer the following verses:
    2 Kings 23:10 And he defiled To'pheth, which is in the valley of the sons of Hinnom, that no one might burn his son or his daughter as an offering to Molech.
    Jer 7:31 And they have built the high place of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.
    Jer 19:5 and have built the high places of Ba'al to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Ba'al, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind;

    And here's a link with regard to child sacrifices practised by the pagan kingdoms that Israel subdued with God's help:
    http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/child-sacrifice.htm

    God Bless,
    John

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Just call me Plus+homey nim, John, but you sir, are an idiot. A morally repugnant idiot to boot.

  • JohnClarinet
    JohnClarinet

    Dear Six,

    You:
    Just call me Plus+homey nim, John, but you sir, are an idiot. A morally repugnant idiot to boot.

    Me:
    Matt 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, `You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.

    God Bless,
    John

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Then just call me Mr. T!

  • JohnClarinet
    JohnClarinet

    Dear Six,

    Better still. I call you "my friend".

    Drop by anytime at my site and let's get to know each other.
    http://pub26.bravenet.com/forum/show.asp?usernum=2200975854

    God Bless,
    John

  • TheHighPriest
    TheHighPriest
    Me:
    The issue here is not the sacrifice of a child, if it were then certainly God would have instructed it to the Jews. But do you see any? Certainly not!


    How anyone can turn around and say that the issue is not the sacrifice of a child is beyond me, the fact still remains that God accepted the sacrifice and that is what makes him an appaling character. If I promised you a TV say, and then proceeded to give you a stolen one, you of course, fully aware of the fact that it was to be stolen yet you accept it, What does that make you? Would you explain to everyone that you accepted it because a promise is a promise? I don't think so but then if you are willing to accept human sacrifice on the same principals, who knows.
    You ask if I can see God asking for a human sacrifice? the answer is a definate yes.
    Gen.22:2
    And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
    Ex.22:29
    Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.
    Lev.27:2, 10, 28-29
    Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When a man shall make a singular vow ... he shall not alter it, nor change it, a good for a bad, or a bad for a good.... no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast ... shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD. None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death.
    Num.31:25-29
    And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation: And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation: And levy a tribute unto the Lord of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.
    2 Sam.21:1, 8-9, 14
    Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.... The king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul ... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD....And after that God was intreated for the land.

    1 Kg.13:2
    And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.
    2 Kg.23:20
    And he slew all the priests of the high places that were there upon the altars, and burned men's bones upon them.

    I still call it a lie and you are indeed promulgating that same lie.

    God help you

    THP

  • JohnClarinet
    JohnClarinet

    Dear THP,

    Me:
    The issue here is not the sacrifice of a child, if it were then certainly God would have instructed it to the Jews. But do you see any? Certainly not!

    You:
    How anyone can turn around and say that the issue is not the sacrifice of a child is beyond me, the fact still remains that God accepted the sacrifice and that is what makes him an appaling character.

    Me:
    Firstly, did God allow children to be sacrificed? In fact, God'S Word speaks against it. That's Japthehs folly. If he knew God's Word he would have certainly not sacrificed his child.
    Secondly, is God dependant on sacrifices? Certainly not! It is the faith of the believer that matters. Japtheh showed little faith by making a hasteful vow and he paid the price for saying it. And should we blame God if Japtheh is foolish enough not to refer to God's Word or even to God to resolve his dilemma?

    You:
    If I promised you a TV say, and then proceeded to give you a stolen one, you of course, fully aware of the fact that it was to be stolen yet you accept it, What does that make you? Would you explain to everyone that you accepted it because a promise is a promise? I don't think so but then if you are willing to accept human sacrifice on the same principals, who knows.

    Me:
    I don't need your TV, but I do value your friendship. God doesn't need your sacrifice, but He does value your faith in Him.

    You:
    You ask if I can see God asking for a human sacrifice? the answer is a definate yes.
    Gen.22:2
    And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

    Me:
    Was Isaac sacrificed? Certainly not! Abraham said "God will provide the sacrifice", and He did by providing the ram (a symbol of Christ's own sacrifice).

    You:
    Ex.22:29
    Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.

    Me:
    Are there any accounts of Jews sacrificing children? Or perhaps even today? You're taking Scripture out of context to suit your errorneous claim. Is this fair?

    You:
    Lev.27:2, 10, 28-29
    Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When a man shall make a singular vow ... he shall not alter it, nor change it, a good for a bad, or a bad for a good.... no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast ... shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD. None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death.

    Me:
    You swapped your wife's gold wedding ring and replaced it with a plastic ring, what would your wife say? How can one treat God with such disrespect?

    You:
    Num.31:25-29
    And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation: And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation: And levy a tribute unto the Lord of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.
    2 Sam.21:1, 8-9, 14
    Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.... The king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul ... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD....And after that God was intreated for the land.
    1 Kg.13:2
    And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.
    2 Kg.23:20
    And he slew all the priests of the high places that were there upon the altars, and burned men's bones upon them.

    Me:
    Again none of the verses speaks of child sacrifices. Try asking a Jew if they practise child sacrifices. Again Scripture is presented out of context.

    You:
    I still call it a lie and you are indeed promulgating that same lie.

    Me:
    Say what you like. The Nazis called Hitler a saint. If though the facts show otherwise the Nazis today still adore him.

    You:
    God help you

    Me:
    He did, through Jesus Christ our Savior.

    God Bless,
    John

  • TheHighPriest
    TheHighPriest
    Firstly, did God allow children to be sacrificed? In fact, God'S Word speaks against it. That's Japthehs folly. If he knew God's Word he would have certainly not sacrificed his child.
    Secondly, is God dependant on sacrifices? Certainly not! It is the faith of the believer that matters. Japtheh showed little faith by making a hasteful vow and he paid the price for saying it. And should we blame God if Japtheh is foolish enough not to refer to God's Word or even to God to resolve his dilemma?


    In your first reply you defended his action of sacrificing his daughter by saying he made a promise which he had to keep and you proceeded to show the relevant scripture and said that the issue was "carlessness in making vows.". Now you've turned around and said he doesn't know his scriptures and that's why he carried out the sacrifice, Make up your mind. Just how much of the scriptures does he know? and how do you know that's how much he knows, from the Bible?.
    The problem still remains though with the fact that God, who at the time frequently communicated with his people, said nothing to help Jephtah understand that he does not need to sacrifice his daughter and in doing so he accepted the sacrifice of a child.

    I don't need your TV, but I do value your friendship. God doesn't need your sacrifice, but He does value your faith in Him.


    So does that mean you would accept the TV just as God accepted the sacrifice?

    Was Isaac sacrificed? Certainly not! Abraham said "God will provide the sacrifice", and He did by providing the ram (a symbol of Christ's own sacrifice).Are there any accounts of Jews sacrificing children? Or perhaps even today? You're taking Scripture out of context to suit your errorneous claim. Is this fair? You swapped your wife's gold wedding ring and replaced it with a plastic ring, what would your wife say? How can one treat God with such disrespect? Again none of the verses speaks of child sacrifices. Try asking a Jew if they practise child sacrifices. Again Scripture is presented out of context.


    Okay now I get it, so long as it is not a question of child sacrifice it is otherwise alright with human sacrifices. The only little blunder being the child of Jephtah but then he made a vow afterall, a promise is a promise no matter what according to holy writ.

    Say what you like. The Nazis called Hitler a saint. If though the facts show otherwise the Nazis today still adore him.


    It's funny you should say that.

    THP

  • JohnClarinet
    JohnClarinet

    Dear TPH,

    Re:

    Firstly, did God allow children to be sacrificed? In fact, God'S Word speaks against it. That's Japthehs folly. If he knew God's Word he would have certainly not sacrificed his child.
    Secondly, is God dependant on sacrifices? Certainly not! It is the faith of the believer that matters. Japtheh showed little faith by making a hasteful vow and he paid the price for saying it. And should we blame God if Japtheh is foolish enough not to refer to God's Word or even to God to resolve his dilemma?

    You:
    In your first reply you defended his action of sacrificing his daughter by saying he made a promise which he had to keep and you proceeded to show the relevant scripture and said that the issue was "carlessness in making vows.". Now you've turned around and said he doesn't know his scriptures and that's why he carried out the sacrifice, Make up your mind. Just how much of the scriptures does he know? and how do you know that's how much he knows, from the Bible?.

    Me:
    Who's defending his action? I presented to you Jepthah's dilemma. On one hand he has made a vow (which Scripture states we should we and even advices that we shouldn't make) and on the other hand he has to sacrifice his child (which Scripture states against child/human sacrifices). In such situations it is best that Jepthah seeked God's guidance but did he?

    You:
    The problem still remains though with the fact that God, who at the time frequently communicated with his people, said nothing to help Jephtah understand that he does not need to sacrifice his daughter and in doing so he accepted the sacrifice of a child.

    Me:
    What makes you think God accepted the sacrifice? The silence from God does not mean He accepted it nor had He anything to do with it.

    Re:

    I don't need your TV, but I do value your friendship. God doesn't need your sacrifice, but He does value your faith in Him.

    You:
    So does that mean you would accept the TV just as God accepted the sacrifice?

    Me:
    Again, did I say I accepted your TV? I would have checked your motive.

    Re:

    Was Isaac sacrificed? Certainly not! Abraham said "God will provide the sacrifice", and He did by providing the ram (a symbol of Christ's own sacrifice).Are there any accounts of Jews sacrificing children? Or perhaps even today? You're taking Scripture out of context to suit your errorneous claim. Is this fair? You swapped your wife's gold wedding ring and replaced it with a plastic ring, what would your wife say? How can one treat God with such disrespect? Again none of the verses speaks of child sacrifices. Try asking a Jew if they practise child sacrifices. Again Scripture is presented out of context.

    You:
    Okay now I get it, so long as it is not a question of child sacrifice it is otherwise alright with human sacrifices.

    Me:
    Where in the Bible states it's ok for human sacrifices?

    You:
    The only little blunder being the child of Jephtah but then he made a vow afterall, a promise is a promise no matter what according to holy writ.

    Me:
    Jepthah made 4 errors:
    1. Not trusting God
    2. Making a vow hastely
    3. Not confiding in God to resolve His dilemma
    4. Not confiding to the Scriptures for guidance.

    Re:

    Say what you like. The Nazis called Hitler a saint. If though the facts show otherwise the Nazis today still adore him.

    You:
    It's funny you should say that.

    Me:
    I have shown you the facts, do you still hold on to your child/human sacrifice accusation?

    God Bless,
    John

  • TheHighPriest
    TheHighPriest
    I have shown you the facts, do you still hold on to your child/human sacrifice accusation?


    You wouldn't know what facts are even if it hit you square in the face I'm afraid. I have shown you from the factual scriptures and all you've done is speculate around some of them so that it suits your idea that God is absolutely up in arms over these sacrifices.
    Lev.27:2, 10, 28-29
    Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When a man shall make a singular vow ... he shall not alter it, nor change it, a good for a bad, or a bad for a good.... no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast ... shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD. None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death.

    Notice how God demands both man and beast to be put to death if devoted.

    2 Sam.21:1, 8-9, 14
    Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.... The king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul ... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD....And after that God was intreated for the land.

    In this instance human sacrifice was the way to please God, once hung up God was happy.

    Num.31:25-29
    And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation: And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation: And levy a tribute unto the Lord of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.

    Don't forget that once devoted to God he want's 'em dead, lucky for Eleazar he only needed to butcher one in five hundred.

    These are the facts and I still hold on to my accustion that God gladly accepts child/human sacrifice's at least in the old testament era.

    THP

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