Sick of it

by Tron 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • Hyghlandyr
    Hyghlandyr

    Yeah I dont object to the morals of the bible either tron. Especially the stuff that says it is ok to buy and sell women. Or the other stuff that says it is ok to just take them. Of course they cannot have lain with a man, otherwise we toast them. Which I used to think was a waste of a perfectly good [lookin] woman. Then I realized maybe it was cause of stretch marks or something. I think Jehovah doesnt want chicks with stretch marks. Or it could be some kinda property thing. I mean what if she was already prego with some other dudes kid. That would bite cause you might think he is yours and god firbid that he should git yer stuff when ya die. That would totally bite.

    But I say we reinstute fully the morals of the bible. Like slavery. Especially sex slavery and concubinage. I am all for it. The black chicks are mine. Oh and the platinum blonds. I also say we reinstitute killing little kids with great big stones, smashing them into them, when they talk back, and become a "rebellious youth". Oh and if you take the name of god in vain. Cuz god dangit so many peoples are doin that now they need to have their heads crushed with great big stones when they curse. I also think that since adultery splits up families we should crush the heads of adulterers with GREAT BIG STONES until they die. That will prevent families from breakin up, cuz then the kids can just be told daddy went to see yeeeehovah. I am a big fan of stoning and becuase we aint doin it the homosexu alls are runnin rampant. I mean its sidim and gimmerah ya know what with canada legalizin himilsexual marraige and the supreme court strikin down laws that perfectly logically allow the govt to impose itself on the private lives of its citizens.... APPAULING IT IS!

    Well do diddly do I could go on all day about all the things in the bible that are so moral and uplifting, like women being stoned when they are raped, I mean HOW DARE THEY allow themselves to be raped the little tarts! and little girls gettin sold to their rapists. That would surely prevent cases of child molestation. I mean stop lockin these people up you idjits, SELL the girls to them and make them marry them and never let them get a deeeee vorce. Cuz deeee vorce is from satan anyhouse. (Deut 22:28, 29....also verse 13 on) Yes as I said I could go on all day about the winderfil things and morals in the Bible, but I have to go read my bible now.

  • berylblue
    berylblue

    Not to demean your excellent observations, tron, but LMAO at hylandyr

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Dear Tron,

    My first though is you are suffering from Justlikeanyotherreligionandbetterthanmost-itus.

    This condition is contracted by non-believing spouses and relatives of active Witnesses, and can end up with a full blown case of 'Wonwithoutaword', when the spouse or relative becomes a Witness. The condition is also common amongst people who were Witnesses but who are no longer associating; these cases can remit or cause the reoccurance of Borgitus.

    I know this, as for the first two years of me not being a practising JW, I used to say 'they are just like any other religion, better than most'. I was still having my thoughts influenced by several well know techniques;

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general431.html

    • Milieu Control

    The first technique many totalistic groups use is what Lifton would describe as "Milieu Control". This is when cult members attempt to bring a potential recruit onto group territory, a milieu or area they can control. Surrounded by people who enthusiastically share a common belief, the individual may become insecure in his beliefs--and is often too far from friends and family to talk with them and do a "reality check." Speaking or acting in ways that are in conflict with the group members who dominate this environment makes the visitor feel awkward and wrong--though he may be acting in an acceptable manner according to societal norms. It is often difficult for a person to remain confident for very long when a group of seemingly kind individuals surround him and use this soft-sell approach to indoctrination.

    The group also rewards potential member's agreement with the group--active members praise and encourage feelings of acceptance whenever he/she complies with the group and/or responds favorably to group doctrine. It is within this rather tightly controlled environment that recruiters keep the potential recruit out of contact with family and friends--who might be familiar with the organization and thus could warn of its dangers. In such a controlled environment, one is more vulnerable to the urgings of hosts.

    • Mystical Manipulation

    The second theme Lifton introduces is called Mystical Manipulation. The group gives new recruits the impression that they are "God's elect"--such as some elite corps serving a heroic cause to save the world. Each member sincerely believes that the world is counting on him to fulfill his/her special responsibility. The members of the group share this profound sense of mission with the newcomer. They may claim that God has supernaturally/mystically guided the person to join their group in order to save humanity. The members frequently have a special ceremony of induction for the "chosen few". This type of induction makes the new recruit feel profoundly significant--thus the pull to join becomes almost irresistible. Despite the fact that the group members have used powerful practical tools such as milieu control, psychological pressure and possibly even lying about the nature of the group. They create the illusion that the recruit has chosen to join as an act of individual free will.

    At this stage the recruit may think he/she is joining a fun social club where the group caters to their every need. After all, during the initial phases of recruitment the recruiters treat a newcomer like royalty--often giving the impression that this may be what the group is all about. But actually this is only done to gain initial commitment. Once the newcomer makes his/her commitment to the group, often even in writing--things change. Gradually, the warmth and affection, which was a principal motivating factor for joining fades--as the new member is now pushed into the same demanding submission that most cults expect. In some groups (e.g. the Unification Church ) this may include working 16 to 20 hours every day with little rest. There may also be a low protein diet, which makes members more malleable.

    Eventually destructive group leaders will use extreme psychological pressure to force the new members to conform to the group's mind-set. This process is again part of "Mystical Manipulation" . In most cases the recruit will not know the actual expectations or agenda of the group and its often-grueling lifestyle. Of course they will be informed after "freely" making a commitment to join. Destructive cults promote the impression people join as a decision based upon individual free will. That impression is carefully ingrained in members and prevents complaints later that they were forced to into their hard life. But they most often fail to inform potential members what they are really committing themselves to--until it is too late. Thus--this manipulation of the group's recruitment process does not provide for truly informed consent.

    • Demand for Purity

    The Demand for Purity is another common constraint within the cult milieu. Destructive cults teach the new member that everyone who is not a part of the group is somehow tainted, negative and/or generally unenlightened--while group members are holy and have the revealed and/or perfected truth. In fact, many groups additionally employ strictly enforced separation in the name of "purity" between males and females to prevent the development of special intimacy. However, the real motivation is more often the jealously of cult leaders regarding any commitment to someone or something else. Thus cult leaders can wield more control over their followers whose attention and time is not subverted by an "impure" romantic involvement with a significant other. In some groups only the leader(s) may decide (e.g. Rev. Moon of the Unification Church ) who is dating whom, who marries or divorces.

    The "Demand for Purity" serves to lower a member's self esteem. More specifically--in many groups there is a demand for "sexual purity" people may not have known this when they first joined. Frequently they did not know they would be expected to become celibate until the group approved of a sanctioned sexual relationship. It is obviously often difficult to accept such a way of life. Before joining many members may have been romantically involved, engaged, or even married. If a new recruit expresses difficulty in complying with this demanding new lifestyle--subsequent harsh rebukes make him feel bad and negative about these seemingly personal flaws and failings. Through continually finding ways to lower a follower's self-esteem, often through a relentless and ever-increasing "demand for purity"--cult leaders can more effectively maintain their control and promote dependency upon the group/leader(s) for a sense of self-worth.

    It is important to note that many leaders of such groups have had sexual affairs, and are guilty of sexual abuse despite such demands (e.g. David Koresh ).

    • Cult of Confession

    Destructive group recruiters also often use the "Cult of Confession" to gain control over new recruits. Through a potential member's personal confession--cults gain valuable information about someone's vulnerabilities and sense of shame. Thus the group gathers meaningful information later used to manipulate the newcomer. Cults use this knowledge, found through personal confessions, as proof that the newcomer's life before the cult was corrupt and repugnant--compared to the correct way of living as prescribed by the group. In this way, the group accesses valuable/critical levers, which can assist them in molding a new recruit to conform to their mindset and preferred personality type (as demonstrated by psychological evaluations of International Church of Christ members ). It also produces a "shaming milieu" that reinforces the group's "demand for purity"--as opposed to an old lifestyle filled with "sins". And again ultimately this will likely lower the confessing members sense of self-esteem--increasing their passivity and submission to the will of the group.

    • Sacred Science

    Cultists present their ideology as a virtual "Sacred Science" to newcomers. Cult recruiters relate their doctrine often with an air of scientific certainty--to convince the more critical thinkers amongst recruits of the validity and precision of their beliefs. People are more apt to accept an ideology that appears to be scientific. Chinese Communists in Lifton's Model (i.e. "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism") likewise presented Communism as the ultimate, scientifically provable, evolved attainment achieved by any truly "progressive" society. Those who disagreed were then labeled "unscientific" or somehow stubbornly ignorant of the seemingly scientific laws of meaningful social evolution. Or, in supposedly "bible" based groups--the organization's often unique and idiosyncratic interpretation of scripture is offered as not an interpretation, but the "truth", absolute and thus unquestioned revelation from God.

    However, despite such claims, actual critical analysis proves repeatedly that such cult claims are typically not scientific, or often defensible exegetically. But most new recruits are not allowed the opportunity to scrutinize such claims to prove their validity through objective evidence. Also the group's members appear so sincere--newcomers tend to trust them and may feel embarrassed to ask questions or challenge their "truth". In fact--most cult recruiters themselves actually sincerely believe the group's doctrines and claims. Though they probably joined the cult through the same process of undue influence. The sheer emotional force of the group's recruitment efforts may not convince some, so a needed little extra push comes from the presentation of the group's doctrine as "scientific truth" or "biblical truth"--this is often the clincher.

    • Loaded Language

    "Loading the language" is another common theme in a cultic setting. A special jargon that gives the members a feeling of exclusiveness and that they possess some esoteric knowledge. This "loaded language" helps build solidarity amongst an elite group that speak the same cultic verbiage/lingo. It also gives the newcomer yet an extra incentive to become more involved with the group--in order to learn this language and understand what everyone is saying. Loaded Language is characterized by "thought terminating" buzz words and phrases that constrict thinking and typically replace any meaningful and independent critical analysis. This can become overwhelming and dominate the member's speech and conversation--while also binding the group together through their common language.

    • Doctrine over Person

    "Doctrine over Person" occurs when cultists insist that the newcomer completely surrender to their teachings--by placing the group's rules and needs and subordinate their own. The leaders typically teach that the group's stated purpose and goals are much more important than the members needs. Therefore the opinions and concerns of individual members such as personal plans--should always be abandoned in favor of service to the group and its ideas. Cultists teach that members should filter their experiences and even thoughts through the cult's mindset. That is--subject personal perceptions of reality to what the group's doctrine offers as its reality. People are taught to essentially interpret almost everything in a way that is consistent with and reinforces the claims of doctrine. The will of the group always takes predominance over the individual--coupled with a likely intolerance to any outside frame of reference.

    • Dispensing of Existence

    Lifton's final theme is the "Dispensing of Existence". This amounts to a claim that only members of the group meaningfully exist. They alone essentially are "good" and/or "saved". This is in stark contrast to non-members who are "bad" and/or "damned". Only group members are really "walking in the light", know the "truth", or are in "the Kingdom of God"--while others are somehow negative and excluded. Summing up this belief--those outside the group are essentially somehow inferior and those within the group are seen as superior. Destructive groups often foster and reinforce this mentality by claiming to be the only ones who have a valid claim to truth--or in extreme circumstances even the earth itself. Those who are inferior, base, and/or simply seen as not yet ready to take-on the their proper responsibilities--may be treated with less concern, respect or sometimes even contempt by cult members (e.g. critical family members, government authorities, old friends etc.) Regarding that treatment--"the ends [may] justify the means". Often this feeling of superiority or worthiness becomes a motive for people remaining within cults.

    I've highlighted in red various bits; now, if I am right, you will be thinking;

    'Ha! Jehovah's Witnesses aren't a cult!'

    ... despite the fact that on each of the eight descriptors of cult characteristics there is some degree of conformity! You may also experience 'thought stopping' (stopping yourself thinking about something because it's not good to question or doubt) and experiencing cognotive dissonance (maintaining that something is or is not true in face of evidence to the contrary).

    Now, obviously the JW are not the Moonies. But they are not 'just like any other religion, better than most'. They control members using vert subtle versions of cruder tactics used by highly destructive cults, and bar a few features of belief are not intrinsically destructive; as religions go, JW's aren;t the plauge, more like tapeworm; you can have tapeworm all your life...

    Now, you are obviously perceptive; you can see that there are as many hypocrites in the Dubs as any other religion despite the pretence to the contrary.

    Don't get sucked in...

  • yxl1
    yxl1

    Tron,

    Your comment " Plain old NASTY woman except at meetings (Elders Wife)" shows what type of people Jehovahs witnesses can be. It can be an amazing sight to see a brother or sister act at being so "Spritually strong" while in the company of other JW's, but alone is more nasty and hurtfull than anyone you're likely to meet outside the "truth". I'm just saddened that your kids are still going. Hopefully, one day they'll see the real truth

    yxl1

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