The witnesses are right, IF humans are worthless

by NaomiB 10 Replies latest jw friends

NaomiB

When we think about the God of the Old Testament, we see a deity that would wipe out 75,000 people, for the mistakes of King David. We see a god who killed 23,000 in one day, for fratranizing with the enemy. According to the Jehovah's Witnesses, today is no different. Today mankind is still as dispensible as they were during the mosaic covenant. Does this make sense?
Its a very important question and worth discussing. What if, like during King David's time, the choices that the Governing Body makes will determine whether we live or die? Is that reasonable? Are human beings dispensible as individuals? Or did the ransom of Jesus Christ actually mean something.
Do we have a better grasp of the words at John 3:16 when we look at how Yud-Hey-Vav-Hey had to deal with the convenant people? Because they were the covenant people. They'd made a deal... but isn't that why we have a new covenant, so that we are free of that dire consequence of sin.
Most likely you will all agree on that point. With that framework in mind, my question to you is... who are the ones destroyed at Armageddon?
Thank you for your thoughtful answers to this slightly interrogative point. I stress that any veiws voiced here are entirely my opinion. I, unlike some people, know that I'm human. If there are flaws in my reasonings, please bring them to my attention.
--Naomi
JT

who are the ones destroyed at Armageddon?

No One- for centuries belief systems have been using fear of THE GODS to get folks to do stuff.
here we are in the year 2002 and you are sounding like those who believed when it thundered the gods were anger and pissed off with them-
why is it that the gods can clean up the earth , set peace in motion, and yet do nothing except instill fear into its believers-
as man becomes more enlightened i wonder will mans need for FEAR of the gods continue to decline?
is it not amazing that the most superstiuous folks thru out history have always been folks who believe in some type of religious belief system
you got to love it
NaomiB

I suppose the parameter on the question was a belief in God and the Bible.
Obviously, if God doesn't exist, and/or the Bible is false we have little to worry about within this thinking system. I suppose it was a question posed within the "confines" of Christian Philosophy.
gumby

Why would a God who NEVER changes and keeps his Judicial actions fairly.....not CONTINUE to wipe out Pagan people who worship other God's, have idols, sacrafice people, as he did centuries ago with the Cannanites.
Why would his son teach to not to act evil towards others such as kill or even speak evil against or even to judge? To turn the other ckeek?
Does it make sense God wiped out so many in times past.....for these very reasons.........and a new era of conduct toward opposers of God is set in motion by God's son who is THE IMAGE of him and is ONE with his father? Do they think alike? Why did God's attitude change?
Questions such as these should be able to be answered if the Bible is God's word.
pomegranate

What if, like during King David's time, the choices that the Governing Body makes will determine whether we live or die?

I believe the GB has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the choices GOD will make. Those "men" are the futhest thing from the truth of God, and what THEY decide will have nothing to do with who God decides to continue to live or not. Each man is responsible for his own sin...
Are human beings dispensible as individuals? Or did the ransom of Jesus Christ actually mean something.
I believe humans are dispensible as we are inherently mortal. Created that way. Christ's ransom WILL have meaning to the ones God decides to apply the value of that sacrifce to.
Do we have a better grasp of the words at John 3:16 when we look at how Yud-Hey-Vav-Hey had to deal with the convenant people?
I believe God does not love all mankind. I don't believe the "whole world" referred to is every man, because even Jesus showed he HATED some men while on earth blatantly condemning them, while loving others. HE also spoke of HIMSELF coming back to destroy those HE decides to be destroyed. God loves the whole CHOSEN world, of which He knew in advance. I believe It is HIS decision on who is chosen or not.
Because they were the covenant people. They'd made a deal... but isn't that why we have a new covenant, so that we are free of that dire consequence of sin.
God made the deal with the people, the people didn't make the deal with God. God decides who is His people, the people don't decide who is God's people. I believe the covenant for sinlessness by way of Christ's sacrifice is a method/tool for God to apply to the man, rather then the man applying the method/tool of God to himself. That's how I accept the sacrifice. It is something applied to a chosen one by God in order for it to work. I accept and believe in Christ's sacrifice in that regard. Who ever God chooses will be the right choice, and the sacrifice shall be applied never to be revolked.
Most likely you will all agree on that point. With that framework in mind, my question to you is... who are the ones destroyed at Armageddon?
WHO CARES? I believe God will keep the "good" as deemed by His perfect judgments and throw out the bad. Whoever they are on either side IS NOT OUR CONCERN before it happens. It will NOT be known who is who until after it happens.
So why even be bothered by something YOU or I have absolutely no fore-knowledge of or NO CONTROL over?
Thank you for your thoughtful answers to this slightly interrogative point. I stress that any veiws voiced here are entirely my opinion. I, unlike some people, know that I'm human. If there are flaws in my reasonings, please bring them to my attention.
The above is also what I believe, not to be construed as something you or anyone else must believe. If there are flaws in your reasoning, let Him adjust you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
and a new era of conduct toward opposers of God is set in motion by God's son who is THE IMAGE of him and is ONE with his father? Do they think alike? Why did God's attitude change?
I don't believe God's attitude changed. The wicked (whoever they may be) will still be destroyed. The only thing that has changed is the method by which they will be destroyed. No longer would God's people take down other people, it will be God, Father and Son, who are to do the final "separating"...after all, Christ taught the Son of Man (HIMSELF) would come with the clouds to do the same bidding as was done in Lot's and Noah's time...Seems that this Christ is VERY MUCH the same one as the one who dealt with the men of the OT. And how's that?
HE will destroy the wicked of which HE will decide who is whois not in that regard.
So...we wait. Or at least I do.
gumby

There is a difference.
"Every eye will see Jesus when he comes. Did every eye see God in the OT BEFORE he chose to kill? They knew very little of the true God to make a choice, but were killed anyway.
pomegranate

They knew very little of the true God to make a choice, but were killed anyway.

Interesting statement. How do you know what they did and did not know? Besides, since when is people knowing God a precursor for God not destroying them? God destoyed many of his own chosen people and THEY assuredly KNEW HIM quite well. They even SAW his presence. So knowing or SEEING for that matter means NOTHING in regard to saving or destoying. It's God's choosing that counts, and he chooses whoever He wishes.
I believe your logic is flawed on this point.
Besides, I believe men have NO CHOICE.
God has choice. Men follow God...a follower does not choose God, God chooses the follower.
Francois

I know I've said it before, but apparently it bears repeating that the Jehovah concept of God is just that...a concept. A concept held by an ancient, primitive, illiterate people who created this God in their own image. The things they held dear, their god held dear. The things they despised, their god despised. And while they were at it, they named themselves their god's chosen people. Big news flash, that.
The Master came along and introduced to us a new concept of God, a concept totally at odds with the concept of god held by his contemporaries. This is why they hated him. They weren't the chosen people anymore (they never were, in fact). Jesus coming here disclosed three things, and we have forgotten. These things Jesus disclosed:
1. He disclosed the perfect man to God.
2. He disclosed God, the real one, to man.
3. He disclosed man to himself. That is, he showed in his life what man could become. Any man.
Christians have for the last two thousand years attempted to comport the bloodthirsty, angry judge-accountant of Sinai with the Loving Father revealed by The Master. Can't be done.
Religions based on fear are not true religions. Religions based on Love and which contemplate a god "who is love" are true religions no matter how much they may differ in "theology." Of course this is my opinion. I know that. But I'm willing to debate that opinion with anyone, especially the GB.
The god of the old testament needs to be abandonded, thrown out, ignored, despised even.
It's really simple.
pomegranate

The Master came along and introduced to us a new concept of God, a concept totally at odds with the concept of god held by his contemporaries.

Luke 17:26-27
"Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

Frank, how can you say Christ the "Master" was at odds with the OT God when he BLATANTLY references that God you deny as the TRUTH? He referenced TWO of the most JUDGMENTAL times in Biblical history as being a time exactly the same as when He returns. The ONLY concept that was CHANGED from OT to NT was not how God would deal with mankind, but the way man was to deal with man.
That change came NOT for God's sake, but for man's sake. And Again, the Master speaks of the OT God:
Luke 17:28-29
"It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Jesus NEVER abandoned the above truth. Because; the God of the OT ,who judged those ones deemed wicked and destroyed them, was none other than Jesus Christ himself.
Mark 2:28
So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
Jesus CAN'T be Lord of the Sabbath unless He was the Lord that CREATED the Sabbbath.

He did it in Noah's day, he did it in Lot's day and will do it again in the future as HE states quite plainly. All things done with Father's permission, as He sits at Father's right hand.
John 5:27
And he [Father] has given him [Jesus] authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
Do I sit in morbid fear of that God hoping for a good judgment? NOPE. Why? Because WHATEVER He decides IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
So I believe regarding the TWO extremes of existence (LIFE AND DEATH) that if I live or if I die, it is GOD'S CHOICE and His decision alone...which makes life quite simple and totally lacking in fear. Why?
I believe this: If I do not hold the power of deciding, THEN I CANNOT MAKE A WRONG CHOICE.
If I live or if I die, let God decide.
NO FEAR.
siegswife

I wonder what makes people feel it's neccessary to judge anyone as being worthy to "be destroyed at Armageddon". If someone believes in God, why do they need to focus on the destruction of other men?
Isn't it better to see what good exists in the world and try to be a part of that aspect of life?
I don't concern myself with trying to determine whether someone is so "bad" that they deserve to die. I don't recall ever being appointed to the position where it's my job to do that. I'd rather look for the good in people, and try not to be hurtful towards others in my own life.
Don't we all die eventually, regardless of how "good" or "bad" we perceive ourselves to be?

The witnesses are right, IF humans are worthless

Share this