Beautiful Garbage, let me first of all commend you for your caution. I agree that false allegations are horrible as even the allegation is a black mark on someone forever. But I would like to clarify my question, I was tired when I wrote it, No excuse, I know. But I wonder why people don't believe that the elders don't turn these people in as a precedent. They don't, & its the law! I don't care if it's just an accusation, it needs to be investigated by qualified people, by those who may even be more qualified to EXONERATE the innocent. And, w/ everyones discussion of which states have mandatory reporting, it's a moot point, because there is a Federal law, the 1974 mondale act, which supersedes all of these state laws. Why do people deny coverups in such an isolationist society?
Why do so many people here disbelieve allegations?
by avishai 41 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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Jim Penton
Frankly, I have not read anyone who has doubted the allegations. We are all quite prepared to have them examined. But there are quite a number of people here who seem to have forgotten that a person is generally considered innocent until proven guilty. I am therefore deeply concerned from a civil liberties standpoint that no one suffer from false accusations. In the United States too many innocent persons are being executed for murders that they did not commit; too many men are being accused of rapes and violence that they did not commit, and it is wrong to let the innocent suffer. That does not mean that I am in any way unconcerned about child molestation; I hate it and believe that proven child molesters should be sent to prison. However, I am terribly concerned about the principle of justice, and have studied many of the false claims about the cults, about male violence toward women, and other issues. I often discuss these matters with my son who is a lawyer in the Canadian Federal Justice Department, and he feels as do I.
While I do think that charges of sexual molestation should be reported to the police, I have grave reservations about the sound judgment of the police and the courts today as well. They, like everyone else, get infected with the ideas of popular causes, and sometimes a good thing can turn into a bad if not pursued with restraint.
With the Watchtower Society I think the particular evil is the attempt to cover up. I do not believe that there is more sexual abuse among Jehovah's Witnesses generally than among other. But I think it particularly evil to shelter child molesters and cause victims to be ignored. And that, I am sure, has happened as a result of Watchtower policy
Jim Penton.
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OHappyDay
Hello Jim. I enjoyed "Apocalypse Delayed," and am glad to see you posting here.
I also share your sense of justice. By all means, convict the guilty, but let them be proven guilty first.
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avishai
Jim, great post! I also have my reservations about the legal system, I work w/ kids who've been taken away by csd every day. I also deal w kids who've been through things that make you want to cry or vomit, or both every damn day. I believe the threat of false accusation is there, but not relavant to the jw's not reporting it. It's the law. It's the right thing to do. The people that are sent on these cases are trained to deal w/ these things, & w/ what we know, I believe, are getting better at it. The vast majority of elders have absolutely NO training on how to investigate these things, much less treat & counsel these people. But, the word of the society, saying, "Beware of psychologists" & "Our counsel is easily as good & effective as these people". I've even heard an elder say, re: my schizophrenic stepdad"A psychologist is good for nothing, you might as well give me the money." Well, my stepdad listened to them, but ended up walking barefoot on the side of I-5, telling everyone he was an angel, & ending up in the looney bin anyway. It's the law, & has no conflict w/ there perception of biblical law. Psychologist's are trained for an average of 8 yrs. Elders recive little if no training, plus due to nepotism or god knows what, Ive known elders w/ I.Q's ranging somewhere between that of a sage hen & a bowling ball. I've heard them spouting there own "interpretation" of Jw doctrine. One time I came home to my superman collection destroyed by my newbie in jw stepdad, because some moron elder told him superman was a false god. Same dipshit elder also said jw's can't be cremated because god needed to resurect our bodies. Hey, God, good luck w/ Abraham, Isaac, & jacob!
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waiting
The fear of the ineptness of professionals in all areas of expertise is a valid complaint. Professional qualifications don't necessarily equate correct - but it sure helps.
Many rape victims stayed away from hospitals and the police for decades just because of this one area - they were afraid of being abused again....and then again when going to Court. Silence reigned.
But, think. If a person told us that they had witnessed a murder - would we encourage them to remain silent? "Just get on with your life."
If a person told us that they were raped yesterday - even date raped - would we encourage them to "just forget about it." Twenty years ago.....we probably would have.
If your sister is beaten by her husband (or vice versa) - will we ask her what she said that provoked her husband to a rage.......or encourage her to call professionals - even the police. Btw, the police, 20 years ago, might have well asked her what she said that provoked her husband.
There is no black/white answer. In the long run, imho, it is still best to turn it over to persons who have the credentials to behave as professionals. We don't even have the credentials to pretend to have those qualifications.
And, as been brought out, in many cases - it's the law. So many women and children have been killed, raped, maimed, by the silence of society. No law is perfect - true. But no law applied to the innocents is even worse.
waiting
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waiting
Hi Beautiful,
All but one of the articles you pulled were from the 80's. It's pretty well established that this was an era of inaccuracy by professionals, victims, etc. But MOST professionals have learned much by that decade. Does it still happen? Would assume so - but nothing to that degree. But MOST professionals are much more careful now.
Many people got hurt. Innocent people were accused. Victims were made from non-victims. Some real victims got lost in the shuffle. And some real abusers smiled and walked away, imho.
Speaking of Satanic Abuse, etc., "If this happened, it needs to be studied. If this didn't happen it needs to be studied." Best quote I ever read by a psychologist......and I forgot his name.
waiting
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JT
ashivai...there is a difference between questioning and asking for evidence versus disbelieving any allegation per se. As well, the nature of how one comes across the allegation is also important to look at. I for one get tired of the "things that cannot be revealed at this time" business. I think all allegations of child abuse should go to the police and not anywhere else. Not on a message board or website, but straight to the cops and the courts. Then the "truth" comes out for everyone to see. It also gets rid of the ""things that I cannot reveal at this time" class
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your post is the bottom line, it is amazing how folks so often confuse "Disbelieving an allegation" with having enough evidence to prove it in court.
I agree the accusation of Teddy being a child molester is powerrful stuff, but my concern is with proving it in court,
as Tom Cruise says" It doesn't matter what I believe, it only matters what i can prove in court"
and that is the position of the wt, they could care less about the accusations, thier main concerns will be --can THEY PROVE IT.--
while it may give them a black eye with the public, for the vast majority of the faithful it will be SATAN IS BUSY, but proving that Teddy was missing with little girl now that is a hit, and as many of us know even then many faithful ones will still stay,
if the catholic church is any indication they didn't lose 30million followers despite all the sex scandal in the last few years we know that MANY believers are just that "BELIEVERS of ANYTHING"
and we see that in all belief systems facts many times mean nothing,
but we are concerned about the victims being able to get justice, wt is no more than an america corp masquarading around as the mouth pc of god, and they are really just a large publishing firm with 6 million unpaid salesmen/women
and as with any corp they can be hit in the pocket book.
so for many of us it is not an issue of DISBELIEF it is an issue of Proof esp in a court that will have nonjw on the jury.
the image of jw for many folks is the smiling little of lady many times standing on the corner offering mags, but we know that behind the mask of friendlyness is a person that will lie thru thier teeth in defense of the org-
in fact many of us would have felt IT WAS FOR THE KINGDOM INTEREST.
my only concern is to make sure that the "I"s are dotted and the "T"s are crossed
because Carolyn Wah, Philipp Brumley, Big Bill and crew from the legal desk will have theirs done
as with the
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JT
Unfortunately, there have been false allegations made. This infuriates me because those that have truely suffered are then made to climb even a steeper hill in their quest for credibility.
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excellent point and that is why it is so important that instead of just throwing stuff out to the media, that one follow a course of shrewedness
i was thinking about the Teddy case, maybe it is just me, but when Teddy found out about these charges, he would have been walking back from the office to the bethel home for lunch when he was being served with an arrest warrant or papers to appear in court, now he has time to call up all his cronies who may know about it and get all his ducks in line- i mean nothing hits as hard as getting hit from THE BLIND SIDE- SMILE
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JT
I can see the GBs telling Teddy, We think you need to take a rest and reassign him to Fuji as a special pioneer and he would spend the rest of his days chilling out- just to get him out of the USA and the arm of the law- we all know that wt has no problem using the law to their advantage
we see that in their instructions to elders who live in a NON-REPORTING state
if they can get away with it they will at least try
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JT
This psoter based on thier own life exp could not have put it any better:
It is not that I don't believe the allegations, for I have been a victim myself... People need to remain balanced because if we don't, this forum will develop a reputation for nothing but a place to slander and distort. I certainly would not want to be guilty of that. We need to be SURE before we make allegations, otherwise it is just empty gossip.
words never spoken more truer