Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

by rawe 139 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • excaliber
    excaliber

    I ment to say I know a lot about the singles branches but not the family wards. Again they are far far more social then JW and plan cool activities. Having lots of social events for singles draws a lot of people to there faith.

    But again I don't like that they banned blacks from there priesthood until around 1978, and there still aren't many ethnicities in the church in America. The even had to come up with a group called the genisis group as sorta a support group for blacks in utah.

    But what they dont tell you is that this group is in utah.... if you don't live in utah near this group your SOL if your black because your probably the only one in your branch or close to it And LDS are only supposed to marry LDS and that puts you in a strange position if not many want to date outside there race because you need to be married to go too the highest heaven.

    If your not married you go to a lower heaven and your not allowed in the highest heaven.

    I also did not like how every time I met with my branch president he ALWAYS asked me about my tithing.

  • Podobear
    Podobear

    Cofty & Qcmbr: Thank you for acknowledging the point I have raised...I hope I get an official LDS response:

    Please now refer to Colossians 1:15-17 in the NWT 1953 and subsequent revisions. The word (other) is inserted in the text as I recall x4 times.

    I was quite happy to uphold the WT position here in my field ministry. Without being sucked into yet another "Trinitarian" debate, I could uphold WT/JW Theology with honour.

    Would a JW Apologist now stand up and be counted: Why, oh Why has the latest NWT translation removed the Parenthesis and accepted the word "other" as part of the official text?

    I accuse the Quorum of the LDS and the GB of JWs with the same fundamental dishonesty. We are all well aware of the curse upon those that alter/add/delete the wording of Scripture.

    Salt Lake City AND Brooklyn. SHAME ON YOU!!!

  • TD
    TD
    Why, oh Why has the latest NWT translation removed the Parenthesis and accepted the word "other" as part of the official text?

    At least when it comes to the Bible, we can read the original text in the Nestle Aland or similar work and argue amongst ourselves if the interpolation is warranted.

  • Podobear
    Podobear

    It isn't the force of argument I am questioning TD... It is the dishonesty of translation/translitteration... adding something that is plainly not there... to bolster individual interpretation.

  • TD
    TD
    It isn't the force of argument I am questioning TD... It is the dishonesty of translation/translitteration... adding something that is plainly not there... to bolster individual interpretation.

    My point was that with the BOM you either accept it or you don't. It's impossible to have much of a discussion over its translation like we do with the Bible and other Ancient Greek works.

  • barry
    barry

    The LDS church is a cult.

    The LDS invited me to their church a while ago. The missionarys told me there was a great apostacy in the early church and expected me to believe a glib statement such as this. If there was an apostacy when did it occur . Was it after Jesus left for heaven, was it after or before the complete bible was decided and the trinity doctrine was decided in about 370ad [the mormons don't believe in the trinity]., or when it was when the roman church reached its full power and influence? Or was it at just the time that LSD apologists happen to dissagree with the church fathers.

    The missionarys asked me to kneel down and pray that that I would accept Joseph as the prophet of god sort of like the Muslims accepting their prophet . It should be noted there have allways been people claiming to have the gift of prophesy in the christian church from the earliest times to now. I recall at the time of Ireaneous prophets were numerous. Barry

  • rawe
    rawe

    Hi Podobear,

    "Can any Mormon or exJW explain the following for me, please: "For thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen" 3 Nephi 13:13 B.O.M and Matthew 6:13 KJV"

    The entire chapter of Matthew 6, with few differences, is copied from the King Jame Version of 1611 and presented in the Book of Mormon as 3 Nephi 13. This is presented as Jesus repeating his message to Native Americans.

    These 13 words, called a doxology, were a later addition to the Bible, hence modern translations do not include them. Some believe much of the Book of Mormon is based on unpublished manuscripts for another author, Solomon Spalding. Whatever the case might be, we would say Smith or Spalding likely did not know this portion of the Lord's prayer was not originally in the Bible. Of the doxology Wikipedia says this:

    The doxology associated with the Lord's Prayer is found in four Vetus Latina manuscripts, only two of which give it in its entirety. The other surviving manuscripts of the Vetus Latina Gospels do not have the doxology. The Vulgate translation also does not include it, thus agreeing with critical editions of the Greek text.

    Thus this extra piece of text from 1611 KJV gets copied into the Book of Mormon produced in the 1830s.

    The odd thing is a few words are dropped from the Lord's prayer in 3 Nephi 13, such as:

    "Thy kingdom come" verse 10
    "Give us this day our daily bread" verse 11.

    If you're thinking bread doesn't fit the setting of 3 Nephi 13, that ideas falls, because the next chapter, 3 Nephi 14, is a copy of Matthew 7, where the word bread appears in verse 9 of both copies.

    "Did the translators of the court of King James copy over the same words from the B.O.M?"

    How the King James Version was produced from 1604 to 1611 is well known. It would of course be impossible for them to reference the Book of Mormon since it would not exist for another 219 years.

    "is the B.O.M merely a plagiarization of the King James Bible?"

    In large sections it obviously is. The hard work of the KJV translators is passed off as the result of translating gold plates recorded in a mysterious unknown language. If copyright laws extended across centuries this would likely not be tolerated. As it is, the KJV text is in the public domain.

    Yet, this doesn't mean the KJV text is always copied verbatim in the Book of Mormon. To be sure, large sections are, but the Book of Mormon does include changes to the text. Alas, the results are often not for the better.

    3 Nephi 13:30

    Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which
    today is, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, *even so will* he [[]]
    clothe you, *if* ye *are not* of little faith.

    vs

    Matthew 6:30

    Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which
    to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more
    clothe you, O ye of little faith?

    So what Jesus should we believe? The one of Matthew who acknowledges we are of "little faith" or the Nephi Jesus who says the opposite?

    Cheers,
    -Randy
    ps. Here is the full text of Matthew 6 and 3 Nephi 13. I've used brackets and asterisks to highlight differences.

    ===
    Matthew 6:1

    Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be
    seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is
    in heaven.

    Matthew 6:2

    Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet
    before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the
    streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you,
    They have their reward.

    Matthew 6:3

    But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy
    right hand doeth:

    Matthew 6:4

    That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in
    secret himself shall reward thee openly.

    Matthew 6:5

    And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for
    they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners
    of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto
    you, They have their reward.

    Matthew 6:6

    But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when
    thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret;
    and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

    Matthew 6:7

    But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:
    for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

    Matthew 6:8

    Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth
    what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

    Matthew 6:9

    After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in
    heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

    Matthew 6:10

    Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

    Matthew 6:11, 12

    Give us this day our daily bread.
    And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

    Matthew 6:13

    And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
    For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory,
    for ever. Amen.

    Matthew 6:14

    For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father
    will also forgive you:

    Matthew 6:15

    But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your
    Father forgive your trespasses.

    Matthew 6:16

    Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad
    countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear
    unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

    Matthew 6:17

    But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy
    face;

    Matthew 6:18

    That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father
    which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall
    reward thee openly.

    Matthew 6:19

    Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth
    and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

    Matthew 6:20

    But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither
    moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break
    through nor steal:

    Matthew 6:21

    For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

    Matthew 6:22

    The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be
    single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

    Matthew 6:23

    But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of
    darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness,
    how great is that darkness!

    Matthew 6:24

    No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one,
    and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise
    the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

    Matthew 6:25

    Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye
    shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye
    shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than
    raiment?

    Matthew 6:26

    Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do
    they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth
    them. Are ye not much better than they?

    Matthew 6:27

    Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his
    stature?

    Matthew 6:28

    And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of
    the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

    Matthew 6:29

    And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory
    was not arrayed like one of these.

    Matthew 6:30

    Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which
    to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more
    clothe you, O ye of little faith?

    Matthew 6:31

    Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or,
    What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

    Matthew 6:32

    (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:)
    for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all
    these things.

    Matthew 6:33

    But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;
    and all these things shall be added unto you.

    Matthew 6:34

    Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow
    shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the
    day is the evil thereof.
    ====
    3 Nephi 13:1

    [[Verily, verily, I say that I would that ye should do alms unto
    the poor; but]] take heed that ye do not your alms before men to be
    seen of them; otherwise ye have no reward of your Father who is
    in heaven.

    3 Nephi 13:2

    Therefore, when *ye shall do your* alms do not sound a trumpet
    before *you*, as *will* hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the
    streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you,
    *they* have their reward.

    3 Nephi 13:3

    But when thou doest alms let not thy left hand know what thy
    right hand doeth;

    3 Nephi 13:4

    That thine alms may be in secret; and thy Father *who* seeth in
    secret, himself shall reward thee openly.

    3 Nephi 13:5

    And when thou prayest thou shalt not *do* as the hypocrites[[]], for
    they love to pray, standing in the synagogues and in the corners
    of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto
    you, *they* have their reward.

    3 Nephi 13:6

    But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when
    thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father *who* is in secret; and
    thy Father, *who* seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

    3 Nephi 13:7

    But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [[]],
    for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

    3 Nephi 13:8

    Be not ye therefore like unto them, for your Father knoweth
    what things ye have need of before ye ask him.

    3 Nephi 13:9

    After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father *who* art in
    heaven, hallowed be thy name.

    3 Nephi 13:10

    [[]] Thy will be done *on* earth as it is in heaven.

    3 Nephi 13:11

    [[]]
    And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

    3 Nephi 13:12, 13

    And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
    For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory,
    forever. Amen.

    3 Nephi 13:14

    For, if ye forgive men their trespasses your heavenly Father
    will also forgive you;

    3 Nephi 13:15

    But if ye forgive not men their trespasses neither will your
    Father forgive your trespasses.

    3 Nephi 13:16

    Moreover, when ye fast be not as the hypocrites, of a sad
    countenance, for they disfigure their faces that they may appear
    unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward.

    3 Nephi 13:17

    But thou, when thou fastest, anoint *thy* head, and wash thy
    face;

    3 Nephi 13:18

    That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father,
    *who* is in secret; and thy Father, *who* seeth in secret, shall
    reward thee openly.

    3 Nephi 13:19

    Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth
    and rust doth corrupt, and thieves break through and steal;

    3 Nephi 13:20

    But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither
    moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break
    through nor steal.

    3 Nephi 13:21

    For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

    3 Nephi 13:22

    The light of the body is the eye; if, therefore, thine eye be
    single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

    3 Nephi 13:23

    But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of
    darkness. If, therefore, the light that is in thee be darkness,
    how great is that darkness!

    3 Nephi 13:24

    No man can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one
    and love the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise
    the other. Ye cannot serve God and Mammon.

    3 Nephi 13:25

    [[And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these
    words he looked upon the twelve whom he had chosen, and said unto
    them: Remember the words which I have spoken. For behold, ye are
    they whom I have chosen to minister unto this people.]]

    Therefore I say unto you, take no thought for your life, what ye
    shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye
    shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than
    raiment?

    3 Nephi 13:26

    Behold the fowls of the air, for they sow not, neither do
    they reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth
    them. Are ye not much better than they?

    3 Nephi 13:27

    Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his
    stature?

    3 Nephi 13:28

    And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of
    the field how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin;

    3 Nephi 13:29

    And yet I say unto you, that even Solomon, in all his glory,
    was not arrayed like one of these.

    3 Nephi 13:30

    Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which
    today is, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, *even so will* he [[]]
    clothe you, *if* ye *are not* of little faith.

    3 Nephi 13:31

    Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or,
    What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

    3 Nephi 13:32

    [[]]
    For your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all
    these things.

    3 Nephi 13:33

    But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness,
    and all these things shall be added unto you.

    3 Nephi 13:34

    Take therefore no thought for the morrow, for the morrow
    shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient *is* the
    day *unto* the evil thereof.
    ===

  • rawe
    rawe

    Hi Qcmbr,

    "When I believed I couldn't understand the relevance of no outside scholars agreeing with BoM historical claims. It was this huge gaping blind spot in my thinking that stopped me realising the obvious. If Cold can stop and think about why no one else in the world of science , history , Egyptology or archaeology agrees with any core Mormon assertions it will hopefully break this mental block. It amazes me how powerful and blinding belief makes us. The constant reliance on faith over rational logic in an evolutionary world still gives me pause to think about what evolutionary advantage faith must give."

    One of the things that keeps me posting on this thread, is the debt of gratitude I feel towards Ex-Mormon's. As a Witness with early access to the Internet I could not bring myself to directly read material strongly critical of our faith or the writings of former members. Instead, I read exit stories of former LDS members. I also posted on the Usenet group alt.religion.mormon. There was a Usenet group for Jehovah's Witnesses too, but I avoided that. At first I would shake my head at just how obviously silly many of the claims of the Book of Mormon appeared to be to me. How in the world, can you believe these claims, surely all it would take is a side-by-side comparison of the KJV with the Book of Mormon to see these sections were an obvious copy? One LDS member sent my a chapter of a book from Hugh Nibley that attempts to explain this issue. I did considerable work to give a response. Alas, my response was dismissed, with a few polite words.

    Then I started to read more of the exit stories. It was then that I realized LDS members really, truly believed in their faith with no less conviction than I had as a Witness. The problem with these claims is one simply cannot not evaluate claims of their faith the same way as other information. Since both faiths largely define the world we lived in, there is an important emotional need to find the claims of the faith true. Conversely finding the claims of critics deficient is also emotionally important. I have come to view this as the two ruler rule.

    If one is make a choice between one claim or the other and there is no emotional investment in the outcome we can use a fixed ruler. But in evaluating faith claims, we tend to pull out the elastic ruler and stretch it as far as needed until the claim fits, or comments of a critic can be rejected.

    The next thing I discovered, is when it comes to faith we tend to be a bit loose with our language. Some statements are factual and should be dumped into that box without much debate. Saying the KJV is an English Bible Translation produced in 1611 is a simple fact. However, other statements are merely faith claims. There are not facts and shouldn't be treated as such. But when we get in the habit co-mingling the two it can get confusing. Here is an example of Cold Steel's post...

    And despite your reservations about the translation process, the general authorities of the LDS church continue to tell us that the Book of Mormon is the most accurately translated book on Earth

    Calling the Book of Mormon a "translation" is a faith claim. Using the phrase "the translation process", assumes a truth, that is not in evidence. Adding the qualifer "most accurate" deepens the confusion. If we restrict ourselves to verifiable evidence, all we can say is manuscripts of the Book of Mormon, in English, dates back to the 1830s.

    This fact vs faith claim lack-of-rigor is rife with religious settings. Articulate speakers talk as if Noah or Abraham really existed in the same manner as known facts from history. This winds up being a sort of social conditioning, wherein we speak of Nephi doing this, in the time of Peleg that, without perhaps stopping and asking, how exactly do I know this is factual?

    Btw- I believe the evolutionary advantage is tied up in imagination, self-denial, later reward and the advantage of obedience.

    Cheers,

    -Randy

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    Podobear : Why, oh Why has the latest NWT translation removed the Parenthesis and accepted the word "other" as part of the official text?

    This rather digresses from this thread but is worthwhile discussing in a thread of its own. Essentially all translation of the Bible or any (other) large work changes the text as that is the nature of translation. The difference between the 2013 NWT text and those translations prior to it is the difference between dynamic and formal equivalence. Both are recognised methods of translation.

  • Podobear
    Podobear

    Thank you Earnest: So why insert a word, which did not appear in the original text, in parentheses in the first place? I agree that this point is worthy of another thread. However, in line with the theme of this thread: I would never consider joining the LDS church, because of such Plaigiarism and dishonesty, any more than I would consider now going back to WT teaching for its dishonesty in such matters.

    How far can a religion go in such critical exegesis, to establish its own particular doctrine?

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit