Can this logic be refuted? (page 2)

2+2=5

Do you believe Jehovah is using the F&DS to direct this organization?

This is all that matters to the elders when faced with questions like yours. Logic and sound reasoning matter little. Answer no to their question and expect a JC to be arranged.

Bells

I remember asking a very similar question of a witness in regards to the whole blood and vaccinations doctrines.

The answer I got was something like 'it's a matter of obedience - so even if someone did die because they didn't take blood fractions / vaccinations, even if it wasn't necessary, they would be rewarded for their obedience and faith in Jehovah with resurrection and everlasting life.

I was stunned.

They totally missed the point - that if such critical doctrine - which is meant to come from the man himself via the holy spirit, could be so wrong that lives are lost and believing families suffer etc. as a result - then there has to be a question as to whether there is a Jehovah that can do this rewarding for obedience!!??

Its madness. It's all madness. If you mention 5 things in a row about witnesses to someone who hasn't dealt with them before - the reaction of the average 'normal' (if such a thing exists) person would be utter stunned gobsmacked shock.

For example: (1) they don't believe in blood transfusions - even if it means allowing their own children to die (but organ transplants are ok), (2) they don't celebrate birthdays or Christmas because of pagan origins (but wedding rings are fine), (3) they believe that listening to certain music / watching certain tv shows can invite DEMONS (yes people - demons!!!!) into their homes, (4) they don't believe in toasting or 'cheersing' - again, the pagan thing (5) they believe that humans have been here for less than 7000 years - and that all animals, yes, lions too, were originally vegitarian) (ok 6) they believe that the end of the world is juuuuuust around the corner (as it has been for the last 100 years) and (7) while I'm on a roll - they believe in the actual, literal flood. 2 of every animal for 40 days and 40 nights. Don't worry about what they all ate, or how the kangaroo managed to get all the way over to this island we now call Australia, with the emu and koala and a few of their other mates

And we could keep going.

The point is - there is NO reasoning with these people!!!! You may, possibly, maybe, succeed in helping to wake one of them up. Maybe. But you will almost certainly be disfellowshipped or marked as an apostate in the mean time. Be careful if this is what you want to avoid.

good luck !!

cuckoo in the nest

The sentiments are admirable, but ultimately it will be an exercise in futility that will only end badly. Probably with your expulsion, and all the fallout that accompanies it.

besty

people aren't in cults for logical reasons so won't let you leave for logical reasons - sucks but thats the way it is

you can read my effort at logic here - http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/144705/1/Our-JC

best of luck

Paul

leavingwt

You wrote: " But I do want to explain the situation to the elders."

Please read 'Crisis of Conscience' by Ray Franz. It explains in detail how interested the elders are in facts and logic. Bottom line: they will disfellowship you.

iCeltic

I wouldn't if I were you, speaking to them about this will only lead to you being DF'd. I'm not 100% but I think they changed the organ donor doctrine in 1980.

cuckoo in the nest

Trying to reason with the unreasonable is nothing but a waste of oxygen. Their priority is preserving the cleanliness of the congregation, i.e. maintaining the one-party state which tolerates no point of view other than their own as dictated by the (arse)holy GB. You will be considered a threat; a gangrenous limb to be cut off, and they'll cauterise the wound with your JC.

Use your new-found knowledge where it will be of most use, preventing others from buying into this BS. Those already in have to make their own minds up about it's falseness, if and when they're ready.

donny

Organ transplants became taboo in 1967 and that was recinded in 1980.

Honesty

I don't want to disassociate or be disfellowshipped for one reason. I have 3 kids and their grandparents, who are still in the truth, play an important role in their lives. My wife, who is still in but does not have great health relies on her parents to help out a lot. To lose this would be a nightmare, that is the only reason why I have not officially packed in this wacko religion.

But I do want to explain the situation to the elders.

Believe me...

If you try to explain anything doctrinal to the elders you will either be disfellowshiped or they will try to force you into disassociating yourself.

If you try to explain anything to them they will perceive you as a threat who is trying to destroy their faith in the organisation.

They will protect their faith in the organisation all the way to the day they stand before Jesus and answer to Him for their deeds.

They will probably try to justify their faith in the organisation instead of faith in Jesus to His face.

You are dealing with some seriously disturbed individuals who will think nothing of destroying your familial relationships if you

show them anything or say anything that puts their organisation in a bad light.

I have been there and done that.

I would have been disfellowshiped for apostasy if I had not have beat them to the punch and told them that I would never

trust the Watchtower Society as long as I live and I would never attend another meeting.

Prior to revealing what I know about this cult, the elders I served with were the nicest, most reasonable people one would ever want to meet.

That changed in a matter of minutes.

One elder even interrupted me just as soon as I asked them if they knew the WTBTS had registered with the UN as a NGO and said that he and I

USED TO BE FRIENDS but I had just BETRAYED Jehovah and in doing so had betrayed him.

You aren't going to get anywhere trying to explain anything to the elders.

If you are wise, you will ignore them and avoid their inquiries if you want to keep your grandchildren.

DeWandelaar

Notsurewheretogo: If I may give you one suggestion: do not even try to come with evidence since they will see it as a hostile action against the GB (aka as THE faithfull slave since 2013). It is better to stay low profile in your case. I know you are right... I have done my research as well... but people under mindcontrol will put everything aside.

Also note that you are, in NO way, obliged to let them visit you for these matters. It is your God-given right to say: "sorry guys... do not want to talk about it".

If... for some reason you still feel you need to present them with evidence then I urge you to tell them you will tape it or that your wife is in the house since you, from your part, have no witness and they are with two persons. Most of the time they will back off. They do not like to be "taped"

In case they want to come up with a JC you at least have proof to show not only them but your family as well.

Can this logic be refuted?

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