Infinity and god - why wait to create the universe?

by Simon 108 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Simon

  Here's the problem with infinity ... we can't comprehend it.

  It's bad enough when it's space, but when it's time as well and then we throw in some all powerful creature supposedly existing forever ... well, it just doesn't make sense and raises questions.

  Such as why wait? Why didn't god create the universe the day before he did? Or the day before that? Why *that* day? Why not the day after? What was he actually doing for all that infinite time? Was he building up his strength?

  Do you see the problem with infinity and god ... it just creates rediculous questions that cannot be answered.

  All because there cannot be a 'before'.

  Here is where science rocks - you may not like the answer but at least it has one. We know that time and space are linked ... gravity 'causes' time. When you are on or near a big mass in the universe then time is faster that if you're in the middle of nothing. Time isn't a constant.

  Now, what if there was no gravity? Nothing. No universe.

  There wouldn't be any time either.

  Without time then there couldn't be a 'before' the universe because time wasn't on the agenda until there was some matter exploding away and gravity in the mix.

  So the universe began precisely when the universe began. Not the day before or the day before that. We got rid of the 'day before' paradox.

  Granted, it takes some getting your head round but at least we have an explanation that I think is better than the "god twiddling his thumbs for infinity" one.
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  Comatose

  Good points, and why wait billions of years after earths creation to then make life on it. Hmmmmmm,
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  EntirelyPossible

  I've tried to get that concept across to many. Nicely done.

  Oh, I've also sent you a PM (in 5 mins).
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  EdenOne

  Simon, by simple logic of reasoning, for sure there was a moment before gravity caused the universe and, as you put it, time, to start. Something happened that caused the change of status quo that led to the existence of the universe. It could have taken a fraction of a second; it could have been a lot more. But surely it could have been measured in time. Just because we don't understand infinity, doesn't mean it can't exist. Actually, that is why we developed the formal concept even without grasping what it really means. That's what abstract thinking is - something that humans excel at and make us truly unique.

  Abstract thinking allow us to imagine concepts before they ever become verifiable by science. That's how you can formulate an hypothesis, for example. Some concepts will continue to exist only in the human mind; some will become verifiable, measurable facts. I think infinity is one such thing. Just because we don't undertsand it to the point of the very notion of it is awkward, doesn't mean it can't exist. For the time being it's a sort of chaos whose order we're yet to discern.

  Eden
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  EntirelyPossible

  by simple logic of reasoning, for sure there was a moment before gravity caused the universe

  Why?

  I think infinity is one such thing.

  Why? In math, infitnity is trivial. In physics, it's always a problem.
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  Satanus

  God waited an infinity before he created the universe. If he hadn't waited so long, the universe could have been built and run its course an infinity ago (infinity contains many other infinities, likely an infinity of infinities). We wouldn't even be here, anymore. See the problem w an infinite god?

  S
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  sarahsmile

  Ok so how could you get rid of day because they were before time and gravity in infinity. Perhaps on the fourth day of infinity God created a portion of the universe, sun and moon, gravity or was it the stars. Time was created for humankind and the seasons. Without the sun, moon, and stars there was no time, eternity. Infinity is the same as eternity? Day and night in Gods eternity is not like day and night with time needed for mankind.

  Maybe science and creation go together.

  Sorry I am limited on science and creation wish I had more. This is as far as my mind can wrap around the topic.
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  sarahsmile

  Your just too smart for me.
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  Bobcat

  Simon:

  I commented on God and Time here (my post # 388). In my thinking there would be no 'day before' at that point (as you also pointed out.)

  That this is difficult to conceptualize is mirrored in the history of the mathematical concept of infinity.

  Take Care

  (Thanks for what has proved to be an enjoyable learning experience, you website and the discussions on it.)
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  EdenOne

  EP,

  because of the necessary change in status quo of the gravity to start the universe. Either a millisecond or billions of years, there was a status quo before that moment, that got changed. Like you said, it's trivial for math, and a problem for physics. But something that physics presently cannot explain doesn't mean it's an impossibility. See, for example, the recent developments around the "dark matter" - science doesn't understand what holds this matter together, and how its elements interact with each other. Electromagnetism and gravity don't seem to apply. Does it mean it's an impossibility? No. it's just awaiting further research.

  I'll give you an example of impossibility. Are you familiar with the problem of the allmightiness of God?

  It goes like this: If God is all-powerful, then he could create a rock so heavy that even God cannot lift it. However, if God cannot lift it, then he's not all-powerful. But if God cannot creat a rock so heavy that even God cannot lift it, then God isn't all-powerful.

  Now, that's an impossibility. Infinity isn't an imposibility. It's just a problem that presently physics aren't prepared to understand.

  Eden