The perplexing conundrum 607 b.c.e condensed down to ONE SIMPLE FACT

by Brother of the Hawk 83 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Newly Enlightened

  Maybe this will help shed some light on what Hubby was trying to say. You've got a JW visiting you and you're trying to show them that the WT$ date of 607 b.c.e is wrong.

  You show them this from the 1956 WT 3/1 pg 144-146:

  7

  [Emphasis mine]

  Finally 2,562 years ago the Davidic dynasty became dormant when King Zedekiah was deposed and the throne was declared unoccupied in 607 B.C. By this time all the prophecy of Isaiah and most of the communications through Ezekiel and Jeremiah and some of the minor prophets had been proclaimed and released for public distribution. This flood of prophetic truths pertained to the fall and restoration of Jerusalem and was spiritual food indeed for the minds and hearts of the faithful minority of Israel. While these prophecies had their miniature fulfillments upon fleshly Israel, yet longer shadows were cast of good to be fulfilled in later times to a far more glorious spiritual Israel of God. Then through the prophet Daniel came heavenly prophetic truths concerning the rise and fall of the Gentile kingdoms leading to the time when the New World kingdom of Messiah would appear on the global scene to break in pieces and consume all these old-world kingdoms. In victorious vindication this kingdom would stand forever. Then 2,397 years ago the last of the Hebrew Scriptures was written, Malachi’s prophecy, setting forth truths as to Jehovah’s coming to the temple for judgment in company with His “angel of the covenant” to arrange for a cleansed priesthood to lead in pure worship for the new world.—Ezek. 21:27; Gal. 6:16; Mal. 3:1,

  Let's just forget the other prophets for just a moment since some of them continued writing AFTER the destruction.....The NWT large print reference bible 'Table of the Books' says:

  Name

  Writer(s):

  Ezekiel

  Place

  Written: Babylon

  Writing

  Completed(B.C.E.): c. 591

  Time

  Covered(B.C.E.): 613–c. 591

  My Interpreter's Bible Dictionary states that the Book of Ezekiel was completed BEFORE 586/587 for the destruction of Jerusalem.

  So, reasoning all of this out to our JW 'visitor or Elder' You can see where Hubby is coming from. Ezekiel finished his writing BEFORE the destruction so it could NOT have been 607. OR, Ezekiel was just writing history and we're ALL wrong [Including WT$]
• 

  Pterist

  A. Ezekiel's prophecies seem to be dated around the exile of king Jehoiachin (597 B.C.)
  
  Thirteen of Ezekiel's message are dated precisely to the day, month and year of King Jehoiachin's exile to Babylon. The following chart lays out the general chronological arrangement of these prophecies with three exceptions (29:1, 17; 32:1) all of which were oracles against Egypt and thus placed together with the other Egyptian prophecies: 1

  Chariot Vision	1:1-3	June 593 B.C.
  Call to be a Watchman	3:16	June 593
  Temple Vision	8:1	August/September 492
  Discourse with Elders	20:1	August 591
  Second Siege of Jerusalem	24:1	January 588
  Judgment on Tyre	26:1	March/April 587/586
  Judgment on Egypt	29:1	January 587
  Judgment on Egypt	29:17	April 571
  Judgment on Egypt	30:20	April 587
  Judgment on Egypt	31:1	June 587
  Lament over Pharaoh	32:1	March 585
  Lament over Egypt	32:17	April 586
  Fall of Jerusalem	33:21	December/January 586/85
  New Temple Vision	40:1	April 573

  B. Ezekiel was called to his prophetic ministry in the fifth year of the exile of King Jehoiachin--593/92 B.C.

  C. Ezekiel's last discourse was dated in the twenty-seventh year of Jehoiachin's exile--571/70 B.C. (29:17)

  D. Ezekiel never mentions the release of Jehoiachin in 560 B.C.

  E. Therefore, it reasonable to conclude that Ezekiel's messages cover the period from 593/92 to 571/70 B.C. and were written down in present form from 571/70 B.C. to 562 B.C.
• 

  Slidin Fast

  In short, there is no simple smoking gun way of explaining it to a dub. They will not be able to see the shine of gold, they hav spent too long trying to polish turds to look like gold.
• 

  Newly Enlightened

  Thank you Pterist. That chart was very helpful in showing that he was a true prophet and Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/86... I was going to copy that chart to my post but figured it may not help anyone that is using the WT$ literature to still prove that the JW's are right.
• 

  irondork

  bookmarked
• 

  Brother of the Hawk

  

  The above scan is from the Interpreter's Bible Dictionary pg 203 It's difficult to see but it say's "In the year 593 somewhere in Mesopotamia, during a thunderstorm, Ezekiel saw his wounderous vision of God and received the call to be a prophet to Israel." If Jerusalem was already destroyed in 607, than whats the point of getting Ezekiel to prophesy? The city is already Destroyed!!!!! It serves no point to give warnings to a people already dead and exiled!!!!!!!

  Amelia Ashton, Dear, you made the same mistake I did when I discovered 607 was a lie, I went right to the source that produced the lie. Sorry It won't work. My wife and I spent 2 days researching the Insight books to find a missed date, Nope, they (WT) covered their tracks very well. So we decided to spend the money and find better, research books, from a printery that does not have an agenda.

  The Oct/Nov, 2011 WT carries 2 articles When was Anncient Jerasulam Destroyed? On pg 24 there is a footnote: Designed to confuse its readers, ( namely sleeping JWs) They insert the word HOWEVER.

  FOOTNOTE: Business tablets exist for all the years traditionally attributed to the Neo-Babylonian kings. When the years that these kings ruled are totaled and a calculation is made back from the last Neo-Babylonian king, Nabonidus, the date reached for the destruction of Jerusalem is 587 B.C.E.However, this method of dating works only if each king followed the other in the same year, without any breaks in between.

  The confusion is in the "HOWEVER. which immediately confuses the fact that all business records DO NOT end untill 587 b.c.e. MY question to you, dear. If Jerusalem was truly destroyed in 607 b.c.e. then would not the business records end at that point in time, instead of continuing untill 587 b.c.e.??? And yet with the assertion of HOWEVER, the WT offers absolutely no evidence that there was ever any break in the line of kings.

  But it's not entirely all our faults, because we have been taught by experts in mind-control & cognitive dissonance

  1967 WT 6/1 pg 338 pp 12

  How will we put these four things into effect? First, study: We may think of study as hard work, as involving heavy research. But in Jehovah’s organization it is not necessary to spend a lot of time and energy in research, for there are brothers in the organization who are assigned to do that very thing, to help you who do not have so much time for this, these preparing the good material in TheWatchtower and other publications of the Society. But you do not study enough? Take this suggestion: Often the very best and most beneficial studying you do is that done when you read a new Watchtower or Awake! or a new book with the joy of getting the new truths and a fresh view. You remember the points. You talk enthusiastically to others about them. So try this: Pick up each Watchtower or Awake! as it comes and read it, just for the joy and pleasure it gives. Remember, you are not sitting down to study, just to enjoy the information. This will increase your joy of reading and will give you incentive for more definite, organized study. Jehovah wants you to enjoy your study. He does not want it to be drudgery to you. He is the happy God, taking pleasure in providing all this rich spiritual food.—1 Tim. 1:11; Acts 20:35.

  So, after reading all of this, I encourage you to go to 2 Th 2:11 and read. Read and make application.

  Affectionately,

  Brother of the Hawk
• 

  Gojira_101

  Well played! Well played Dad.
• 

  Larsinger58

  There are many offered interpretations of when the 70 years of exile or the land being desolate occurred. According to Jewish tradition, per Josephus, these 70 years began with the last deportation and ended in the 1st of Cyrus:

  Antiquities 11:1:1. "IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus (1) which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity."

  This means there is a direct conflict between the Babylonian records, which are copies from the time of Darius II during the Persian Period and Josephus in Antiquities. Both can't be right. Since revisionism among the pagans was common place back then, we have to presume that either the Jews/Josephus revised their records or the Persians revised the Babylonian records. The answer to this question is a matter of research. This has nothing to do with the Bible's "relative history" for this period, but at some point a comparison with the Bible and secular historians is what true Christians would be interested in. That is, what does the Bible itself tell us about this period of time? Both via "relative" and via "absolute" dating? I agree, COJ is extremely convincing and is a good writer. But he is only telling you one side of the story and one side of the debate. You have to look at the other debate points before deciding the Persian-copied records are completely reliable.

  Plus there are new things to consider now, including good C14 (radiocarbon) dating of certain events, like the fall of Jericho and the invasion by Shishak, events we can then apply to the Biblical and secular timelines.

  So someone should ask what Jonsson thinks about Josephus' claim that there is a 70-year period from the last deportation, year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II, down to the 1st of Cyrus! Do we dismiss this record as spurious and erroneous compared to the secular records? Or were the secular records revised? We should get his quotes about Ant. 11.1.1 -- maybe Josephus was confused here!
• 

  Larsinger58

  The confusion is in the "HOWEVER. which immediately confuses the fact that all business records DO NOT end untill 587 b.c.e. MY question to you, dear. If Jerusalem was truly destroyed in 607 b.c.e. then would not the business records end at that point in time, instead of continuing untill 587 b.c.e.??? And yet with the assertion of HOWEVER, the WT offers absolutely no evidence that there was ever any break in the line of kings.

  Please note that business documents represent only "relative chronology" and not "absolute chronology." That is why there is so much fuss over eclipses and astronomy, since these provide us with potential absolute dates. Thus the WTS assigns 43 years to Nebuchadnezzar II just like those who think Jerusalem fell in 586 BCE. The 43 years are just applied to different years. As far as I know, the WTS adds in those 20 years during the reign of Ewil-Merodach; otherwise, I don't think they really know or care where the extra years come from.

  Of interesting note, in Antiquities, Josephus originally claims that Ewil-Merodach ruled for 18 years. But in his later work in Against Apion, he follows the current traditional reduced timeline and says Ewil-Merodach ruled for just 2 years. Even so, he still claims in Against Apion 1:18 that the Jerusalem was desolated for "seventy years." So, indeed, there is a lot of confusion and clear revisionism going on for the NB Period. In COJ's book, he notes that the Jews had always claimed the Persian Period was too long and had too many kings, but this is generally ignored.
• 

  Larsinger58

  WHAT ABOUT THE BIBLE'S "RELATIVE CHRONOLOGY" FOR THE NT PERIOD?

  Well, for those wanting to compare what the Bible says directly with this period, we have these references:

  1. The exile of Jehoiachin began the very last day of the 8th year, when a new Babylonian year began the next day. So the exile of Jehoiachin is parallel to the 9th year of Nebuchadnezzar II, as well as the reign of Zedekiah. Thus there is an 8-year difference. 9 minus 1 = 8. That is why for the year Jerusalem was destroyed, year 19, it matches the 11th year of Zedekiah. 19 minus 11 = 9. Thus when Jehoiachin was released from prison the same year Ewil-Merodach became king, which was late in his 37th year of exile, we know this was the 45th year of Nebuchadnezzar II, not his 43rd year. That is 37 plus 8 = 45. So the current records reduce the reign of Nebuchadnezzar II by two years per the Bible.

  2. The Bible follows Josephus in introducing a 70-year period from the last deportation to the 1st of Cyrus. This is confirmed by Zechariah 1 and 7 where we find in year 2 of Darius the Mede that the Jews are still in exile 70 years after the fall of Babylon. Zechariah 7 confirms the Jews are still in exile as well in year four of Darius the Mede. But if the 70 years did not begin until year 23, which is 4 years after the fall of Jerusalem in year 19, then the 70 years would not have been over for another 2 years, after Darius the Mede ruled for a full six years. So no way does the Bible's timeline for the NB Period match that of the revised secular Bablonian records from the Persian Period! These used to reflect that Darius the Mede ruled for 2 years and then Cyrus came to the throne. Now the WTS and others are saying that the rule of Cyrus and that of Darius the Mede were parallel and that Darius the Mede had no years of rule apart from Cyrus. But per the Bible, Darius the Mede must rule for a full six years before Cyrus comes to the throne. So this is another clear conflict for serious Bible chronologists, between the Bible and the surviving Babylonian records.

  These two references are Bible-required corrections to the current timeline.

  But is it reasonable to think that the pagans were actively engaged in historical propaganda rather than fact? Well, Darius I, the Great, decided to catalog the events of his rule, at least the first couple of years, on a sheer cliff at Behistun. He did so in three different languages, one of which was already extinct. So that tells us right there that he was well aware of the ease of revisionism back then and he wanted to make it extremely difficult to revise his own historical story.

  My issue is not to just believe the Bible and whatever it says, but check it out. But at the same time, what about the secular records and history? Don't they have to undergo the same skepticism and critical review? Of course! Let's learn about everything, put everything under a microscope, and then if you can make a decision about what seems most reliable to you, then you make a decision at that point.

  I like COJ a lot, in fact, I'm one of his fans. But as convincing he is of manking his own point, he skips over a whole lot of stuff that need answers. When you try and corner him on the hard points, he runs like crazy.