by matt2414 76 Replies latest watchtower bible
The Apostle Paul says that God has made some to be vessels of Wrath.
These vessels should not complain to the potter: Why did you make me this way?
"It's easy to invent a life
God does it every day.
Creation but the gambol
of His Authority.
It's easy to efface it
the Thrifty Deity
could scarce afford eternity
to spontaneity.
The perished patterns murmur -
but His Perturbless Plan proceeds:
Inserting here- a sun.
There: leaving out a Man."
E. Dickinson
Open Mind, that WT-apologist hat is more like a dunce cap. Many of those arguments don't hold water.
Matt:
nd if gays are taking sexual "desires and twisting them so that they are no longer acceptable to God," then why didn't Jesus come right out and say it, "Homosexuality is not acceptable to God"? Nowhere does he say it or even hint that homosexuality is wrong. When he mentioned Sodom he instead said, "Remember the wife of Lot." Was she a lesbian? There's no indication that she was. Sure, there may not have been a word for homosexual in the Bible languages, but it was quite well known and practiced among both the Greeks and Romans. Even Emporor Nero is said to have married men, twice. So why didn't Jesus address the matter if it was so common? He instead said, at John 13:34: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."
mP:
Homosexuality was more common in ancient times then now. In some countries many boys had mentors (lets call them that) who also boinked them. In fact out of the first 10 emperors only 1 didnt have a boy for raping purposes. However the Romans found it wrong for a lower class man to give it to a upper class man. It was perfectly fine for the upper class to give it to the lower class though.
There are stories that make fun of Julius Caesar because he got it from some other King during his travels.
Hey there matt2414, you make some great points. I could put the "dunce cap" back on and throw back a couple of WT thrusts and parries, but I really don't have the stomach (or time) for it.
Especially since I no longer believe in the Bible or Bible God.
om
The WTS has always been a homophobic organization and will remain so. This quotation from the March 15, 2013 issue of The Watchtower changes nothing. That can be seen from the language used in depicting the situation of the young gay man who was said to have “stumbled badly, was Scripturally disciplined, and received help from the elders.” The magazine doesn’t discuss the roots of this man’s homosexuality, only saying he had been raised as a Witness but engaged in same-sex relations nevertheless. If he had not agreed that he was guilty of “gross sin” and then manifested repentance by groveling to the judicial committee as well as returned to a celibate life, his situation would never have been discussed.
I believe the only reason the WTS is even addressing this issue is because it is receiving all kinds of inquiries from Witness parents who are convinced that their children will be everlastingly destroyed because they are gay. So they write the Society asking for advice about how to change their kids from gay to straight. This answer does not address the question of why the child is gay, only what must be done to ensure the child’s salvation.
But even if the WTS should someday agree that people are born gay, it will never change its policy about their place in the organization. Same-sex marriages will never be acknowledged in the organization (let alone performed). Children of such couples will be unwelcomed. Any and all involved in either a marriage or civil union will be compelled to end the relationship if they ever seek to be baptized. In other words, there is simply no place for LGBT people in the organization. The information in this Watchtower makes that perfectly clear.
Quendi
All homophobes are often if not always homosexuals, and channel their hatred as a means of deflecting attention from their closet behaviour. How many politicians in recent times have been at teh forefront of anti homosexual statements and beliefs and then end up getting caught with a boyfriend in some airport etc.
mP, it does seem like many homophobes are homosexuals. But to qualify that statement, I believe most homosexuals who are homophobes are religious or have some perverse view of God. I think they are this way because A) they feel they have to prove themselves worthy to their god; B) they are afraid of being outed so they overemphasize their disdain toward gays; and C) they are self loathing because they know that they are secretly fantacizing or even practicing homosexual behavior, and are afraid of being exposed.
mP:
You make some good points about the prevalence of same-sex behavior in Bible times, which is well documented. However, many uninformed people tend to equate that behavior with homosexuality. That couldn't be further from the truth. Many of the men in ancient times who practiced such same-sex behavior were married to women. Recent research has shown that less than 4% of the U.S. population is gay. But reports have shown that between 10%-13% of men who identify as straight admit to having occasional same-sex enounters. Yes, there are actually more straight people engaging in same-sex activity than gays! This may come as a surprise to many, but just peruse Craigslist and see how many straight or married individuals are seeking a same-sex encounter. This doesn't make them gay, anymore than if a gay person having heterosexual relations would be straight. Most men in prisons are straight and yet their same-sex activities are pretty well known. It's likely the percentages were similar in ancient times.
So when the OT says that men should "not lie with a man as one lies with a woman," to whom were these words actually directed? To straight men or gay men? And why are the words "men who lie with men" almost always given in the context of worshipping false gods? Just read the surrounding verses and chapters and see. Until religious homophobes can answer these questions, they are being awfully presumptuous and really have no idea what they are talking about. The Governing Body is especially guilty of such ignorance and wrecklessness with the Bible because they claim to be God's anointed mouthpiece.
I am at times "facinated" by the directly opposite Bible-based views of spiritual persons (disciples) versus religious persons (Pharisees) on LGBTI matters.
(Why does the "true religion" secretly blind its followers to the "Good News" according to Paul, Moses, Isaiah and Psalms?)
My advice to LGBT people who are looking for a spiritual community is that there are plenty available which will welcome them and their families with open and loving arms. There is neither rhyme nor reason to embrace the beliefs of those who not only reject their nature, but also teach self-hatred as a path to God and spiritual enlightenment. Jehovah’s Witnesses are not alone in doing this, but they exacerbate it with their shunning practices.
After I abandoned my efforts to get reinstated three years ago, I got on the Internet to seek another community which would allow me to profess and practice Christianity with no strings attached. I did find one and when I attended my first service there was received warmly and with dignity. I wasn’t “love bombed” the way Witnesses do, but instead the pastor spoke to me the way a good friend speaks to another. I interacted with other members of the congregation who treated me the same.
What particularly impressed me was the atmosphere in this particular church. Same-sex couples who attended felt free to show affection to their partners—not in a flamboyant way but the way any other couple would. There were also straight couples who attended this service and it was clear they felt comfortable and an integral part of the congregation. Both straight and same-sex couples brought their children. Neither same-sex marriage nor civil unions are currently legal here in Colorado although civil unions will gain legal status this year. Same-sex marriages will hopefully follow.
My point is that even when same-sex relationships lack legal recognition, that doesn’t mean churches have to be hostile to them. Same-sex marriages will ultimately be allowed in the United States. When that happens, I can only wonder what the WTS will tell its followers. As far as I can tell, the organization has no prepared approach for its canvassers in the nine states (including New York) where same-sex marriage is legal. It is ignoring the issue for now, but once legal status is granted to such marriages, the WTS will have to pull its head out of the sand and address this.
Quendi
