Tim Tebow to address Anti-Gay Anti-Semetic Mega Church

by designs 110 Replies latest social current

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  still thinking

  Well...I've skimmied through this thread...and am uninspired to respond to the vast majority of comments defending the religious right to bigotry and abuse.

  Its the mind control and manipulaton that rational people oppose...cofty.

  All I can say is...cofty, I agree with this.

  Tec...your continued assertion that 'some' atheists try to create predudice against believers simply because they believe is untrue. No matter how many time you repeat it. It will not make it any truer.

  My inlaws are VERY reiligious in a sense that they have very strong faith in christ but do not (for now) belong to any church. I have utmost respect for them as people. The are a couple of the nicest people I have ever met. THEY do not push their beliefs on others. They do preach (and used to call themselves pastors) and have small gatherings in thier house for those that want it. But that is all.

  I do NOT respect their delusion. (and I am free to call it that) But I respect them as humans and wonderful people. They behave like christians apparently should. They are charitable, loving, caring and giving, that's who they are. The would do anything to help anyone. I can not critisize their behaviour. BUT, I do not respect their unfounded belief...and just for you cagefighter, who seems to be insisting that atheists don't want people to have the same rights and freedoms...meh! I would fight for their right to be able to discuss their belief freely. Even though I don't agree with what they teach. Many religions, for example Islam, fight to silence people who disagree with them to the point of threating peoples lives. And the catholic church has had a history of killing and torturing those that oppose them.

  Manipulation of Religion and some of its followers I hold in contempt. Because of WHAT THEY DO.
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  tec

  Hey any guy willing to show up in bright plaid knickers to play golf in isn't to be messed with

  Indeed ;)

  Tec...your continued assertion that 'some' atheists try to create predudice against believers simply because they believe is untrue. No matter how many time you repeat it. It will not make it any truer.

  Some atheists are prejudiced against believers simply because they believe. Their statements can create further prejudice. I never said that it was you. I said only that I have seen such, to the point of stating that someone of faith should not hold certain careers... without a shred of proof that their belief would effect their work. To the point of spreading the lies that these people are ignorant, lesser, not as enlightened, etc, etc. Those kinds of statements CREATE prejudice in the same way that statements that homosexuals are lesser beings who should also not hold certain careers creates prejudice against them.

  Peace,

  tammy
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  Gopher

  Tammy:

  You seem to imply an equivalency between perceived instances of bias by atheists against believers with the instances of bias by believers against homosexuals.

  Disclaimer - I am now an unbeliever, formerly a believer. And like another humanist poster on this thread, I fully support the concept of people being able to believe what they want.

  That being said, here's what I think: In American society, believers are in the clear majority. They hold almost all the levers of power, and politically can get much more tilted their way. This, in spite of the establishment clause of our Constitution.

  I'm unaware of times where atheists have attempted to block believers from gainful employment. Maybe you mean in the world of science?

  I don't know, but I don't know that it's ever reached the point where such believers have had to fight a large establishment that has demonized them, or have had to fight against laws and lawmakers who are determined to marginalize/diminish them as unworthy humans. But homosexuals demonized by certain influential religions have had to do so. So I don't see the equivalency.
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  tec

  Atheists are in the minority at the moment, and atheists who are prejudiced against people of faith are an even further minority. A minority does not often affect policies... not unless/until they are in a position of power or authority.

  But as has been stated in this thread, prejudices are built upon teachings that LEAD to bias and prejudice.

  It starts with words, and changing/influencing the way people think and feel. Then it grows from there. The attitude comes first, then the action. Certainly not by all... but then not all religious people are prejudiced and/or discriminatory either. Enough are though, that people have gotten hurt.

  It is just something I think people should be aware of, because we almost never see our own prejudices toward others. We almost always justify it to ourselves, or dismiss it as not existing. Anyone that promotes another group of people as being less than themselves, is promoting prejudice.

  (And yes, I meant in the world of science... which leaks into the world of law enforcement and trials and such which involves science in crime, and also leaks into teaching, and also leaks into the medical profession... I mean, there aren't many places it does not leak except perhaps in some of the more 'ditch digging' jobs.)

  Peace,

  tammy
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  still thinking

  and atheists who are prejudiced against people of faith

  Who are these people you keep referring too? Is it a group of atheist somewhere that are organised or actively trying to harm people of faith? Sometimes I think you just make stuff up as you go because it has that WOW factor. But where are you getting this from? I don't know any atheists that are prejudiced against PEOPLE of faith. Just their faith and the way they go about it. Statements like that are unfounded.

  I find relgious belief to be prejudiced against everyone that doesn't believe as they do (and they patronisingly insist it's because WE just don't understand yet, assuming they are always right). Because some believe they will be saved and are special in some way that non believers aren't. What sort of prejudice does that create in society? People who think they are superior because they have the 'TRUTH' (not just JW's either). And will probably be saved and rule over others in the future?

  They often profess humbleness...but as one thread on here recently showed when discussing how christ makes people 'fully human' etc...that belief is far from humble and is in fact repulsive. I will not respect it. And fortunately, I don't have to..
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  cofty

  Yes apparently atheists are not fully human - who would have thought?

  Tammy stop with the persecution complex.
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  designs

  You have to hand it to Pastor Jeffress he sticks by his statements. When Mitt Romney asked him to change his statement on the LDS being a 'cult' he turned Mitt down. He also publishes a 'Naughty and Nice List' for businesses that support Christmas. And of course his sermon on 'Gay Is Not Ok'. Now they run homeless shelter and other social services such as senior care. Michael Mooney, who interviewed him, said he is genuinely polite and caring. He simply wishes that you don't end up in Hell. While his college does not teach evolution it does prepare young people for missions to convert the unsaved.

  He also may rival other wealthy ministries. His campus construction project is budgeted at $128million, the most expensive of its kind, featuring a cross shaped fountain and glass skywalk, an 'oasis' within the city as Jeffress invisions.

  Jeffress vocal stand against homosexuals came from reading two books: 'Heather Has Two Mommies' and 'Daddy's Roommate', he never returned those books to the Library according to the interview.

  So Tim has taken a stand of sorts with the public and with his professional colleagues.

  I should add the Wt. leaders could stand to take pointers from Jeffress and his positive approaches to social problems.
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  still thinking

  Tammy:

  You seem to imply an equivalency between perceived instances of bias by atheists against believers with the instances of bias by believers against homosexuals.

  Don't forget racism too...she is really trying paint a bleak picture of Atheism. Trouble is. Its nonsense.

  to the point of stating that someone of faith should not hold certain careers

  Lets see...would you like someone like Osama Binladin (a person of very strong faith) to hold a position of power in your country?

  It is not because the 'person' holds faith. It is the faith he holds. And the actual effects that person of faith, holding a positon of power would have to change others lives and impose his belifs on others.

  Would you want a person of 'faith' that believes all homosexuals should not have equal rights, as in some parts of Africa to hold a position of power in YOUR country? Where it is against some of their RELIGIOUS values and imposed on all the people of their country. This ignorance and RELIGIOUS bigotry does not deserve respect.

  Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender (LGBT) rights in Africa are limited in comparison to many other areas of the world. The International Gay and Lesbian Association estimated in 2008 that homosexuality was outlawed in 38 African countries, and in at least 13 African countries, homosexuality was legal or there were no laws pertaining to it. [1]

  Since 2011, some first world countries have been considering or implementing laws that limit or prohibit general budget support to countries that restrict the rights of homosexuals. [2] In spite of this, many African countries are continuing to breach international human rights laws, refusing to consider increasing LGBT rights, [3] and in some cases drafting laws to increase sanctions against LGBT lifestyles. [4] Many African leaders feel that gay rights are against their cultural and religious value systems and believe they have a sovereign right to reject what is seen as an imposition by mainly Western nations, which attempts to affect national sentiment via aid. [5] [6] [7] [8]

  In Mauritania, Sudan, and northern Nigeria, homosexuality is punishable by death. In Uganda, Tanzania, and Sierra Leone, offenders can receive life imprisonment for homosexual acts. South Africa's constitution has the most liberal attitudes toward gays and lesbians, with a constitution which guarantees gay and lesbian rights, and legal same-sex marriage.
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  Gopher

  I appreciate hearing your thoughts, Tammy.

  However I must kindly but firmly disagree with any assertion that atheism in and of itself leads to prejudice against unbelievers, if that's what you are saying.

  Pure atheism is a mere skepticism about the existence of any deity. It doesn't teach condemnation of those who don't agree with its ideas.

  Some individual atheists would take it to that extent, but that is a function of their personality. That is to say, they would be that way regardless of their philosophy or belief. (Just as I like to say, some JW's are nice people in spite of and not because of their religion.)
  
  I am unaware of atheist persecution of Christians in law enforcement, criminal investigation, teaching and medicine. If you wish to provide a source here (or if you wish you may send it to me in a PM so we can take this topic off-line), I'm interested in hearing it because I've never heard much about it before (other than the resistance to young-earth creationists who try to introduce the topic of the supernatural into science whereas science shouldn't deal with the question of the supernatural but only the natural).
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  still thinking

  How about a member of the Governing body of the Jehovahs Witnesses? Would you want them in a position of power? What sort of law reform would we be seeing if they were in charge?

  It is just something I think people should be aware of, because we almost never see our own prejudices toward others. We almost always justify it to ourselves, or dismiss it as not existing. Anyone that promotes another group of people as being less than themselves, is promoting prejudice...tec

  I have to agree with that statement. Especially when believers are saying that those that do not have faith in christ are not 'fully human'. Now THAT is very very similar to how racists and homophobics think of other people.

  I don't know about you, but I would not want someone who held this type of belief making governmental decisions for me.