by cofty 148 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
@my
I think that the proper pre-incarnate name "YHWH" would be important in establishing why it was prophesied that "the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son and shall call His name Immanuel". isaiah 7:14...which is translated, "God with us". matthew 1:23.
mP
When is Jesus called Immanuel ? Name a single scripture outside your quote where this happens.
BTW Isa 7:14 doesnt say virgin the ancient hebrew actually says young maiden with no connetation of virginity.
Every time Jesus is referred to as "God" he is being called "Immanuel".
In regards to what we knwo about Christians, we know as much as we know about other relgions at that time, perhaps more even.
We have the writings of christians and even those that wrotes against Christians or were mere observers.
A good example is:
Pliny the younger:
They affirmed, however, that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up.
Truth be told we don't have much mention of what types of people the Christians were other than by their own writings, which is at least indicates that they didn't do anything overly notworthy in a bad sense, unless you take for real the view that Christians set fire to Rome, which NO historian does of course.
Because someone grabs a verse from the OT and hangs it on Jesus means nothing.
Because someone grabs a verse from the OT and hangs it on Jesus means nothing.
It means as much or as little to a person as it means to them.
The issue that 1st century Jews had to Jesus followers claims that He was the messiah is that Jesus did NOT fullfil the signs of being the messiah an usher in teh Messianic age.
No 1st century jew was expecting a "crucified messiah".
The Jesus of the Gospels is kind of like Mitt Romney, if you don't get the job done you don't get to be called President (or Messiah).
UNless the whole notion of "messiahship" is redefined.
Which is what the resurrection of Jesus caused His followers to do.
You can invent and reinvent all you want. Problem is with the NT writers they confiscated an OT Messiah which was suppose to get everything done 1st trip out. Your guy didn't get the job done, sorry....I didn't vote for Mitt either
You can invent and reinvent all you want. Problem is with the NT writers they confiscated an OT Messiah which was suppose to get everything done 1st trip out. Your guy didn't get the job done, sorry....I didn't vote for Mitt either
I didn't invent or re0invent anything.
It was quite clear to the disciples of Jesus that his resurrestion changed everything, which it did.
Your view or my view on that is irrelevant to what happened to them.
We are talking about the context of the early church VS the JW's current view.
dear Vanderhoven...
you said: "It is sufficient for salvation to believe Jesus is the Son of God without fully grasping His ontology...if one has a relationship with Jesus Christ."...
how can a person who doesn't understand the ontology of Jesus but who continues denying the teaching of the Holy Spirit by clinging to their own understanding actually be in a "biblically normative" relationship with Jesus if they have been denying the teaching of the Holy Spirit through His MANY means?...
the OT has statements saying that God is our salvation, King etc., Jesus said: "before abraham was, I AM","the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son and shall call His name Immanuel". isaiah 7:14...which is translated, "God with us". matthew 1:23...the NT testament saints called Jesus God, Saviour and King, the orthodox church has consistantly taught that God is a unity of trinity...and the Holy Spirit is behind leading all of these people to believe and write this truth.
I think that accepting that Jesus is God the Son based on what the Holy Spirit began to teach in isaiah, what Jesus said in the NT, what the NT saints said and what the church teaches (whether one understands it or not) displays subjection to God in humility. That is the kind of person that the Holy Spirit CAN teach...
love michelle
Even if as a JW you allow that the trinity is a false doctrine and that Jesus was created by the Father, how do you explain this gulf in the way you view Jesus as compared to the place he had in the lives and worship of the New Testament Church?
Jesus is the son of Jehovah God and gets worship, but that worship he gets is not the same or at the level that Jehovah gets. It's not the difficult to comprehend. Worship had variations and degrees.
