While I am waiting for him to answer my question. I thought I would ask of him and any other JW's. We are supposed to have the truth, the bible is all scripture is inspired and benefitical for teaching, reproving, and setting things straight. The thought that at Bethel they are involved in spiritism, that being a JW could be idolatrous, and that actually abusing Jehovah's people seems like a crazy idea doesn't it? I was not looking for excuses to leave, what I read in the bible made me unable to continue because of trying to do what is right. NOBODY had been able to answer these questions, and I wonder how general JW's would answer or explain these. I know this will be a bit long, it's all based on scriptures, it's not based on human mistakes and errors, it's current practices and wondering WHY vs what I see in the scriptures.
I am going to only list scriptures, and only 1 WT, recent article for one of my questions, since that article fully explains the belief on the subject.
So I will list a few beliefs, then the scriptures I have seen which make me not only uncomfortable but feel guilty if I was to remain.
First is SPIRITISM. Why do we believe the anointed have been resurrected already and are communicating with those at Bethel spiritual truths. The 2007 WT 1/1 pages either 25 to 30 or 30 to 35 completely explain it - The article is titled, "The first resurrection, now under way"
It says this..."It seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today. Why is that important? Because the correct identity of the great crowd was revealed to God’s anointed servants on earth in 1935. If one of the 24 elders was used to convey that important truth, he would have had to be resurrected to heaven by 1935 at the latest."
Now if that was true, if that was what God was doing, that would be okay. BUT if the anointed who had died, are still dead, and if the bible does not teach that they will communicate with anointed on Earth today, then that leaves only DEMONS who could do this. Since they readily believe that anointed who had died are communicating truths, that tells me whoever wrote or inspired this article may have had experiences to lead them to believe that.
2 Scriptures though seem to answer this off the bat.
1 Thess 4:15-17 - "For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord."
That scripture alone, without considering any others, says the living won't go first, the Lord will descend with a God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union will rise. After, the LIVING who are still alive will together with the dead be caught away in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Now how does that happen?? Since we know flesh can't go to heaven.
I can't understand why 1 Cor 15:52 was referenced but that vs 51 was ignored. Vs 51 is VERY important. It says, "Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
So here is a SACRED SECRET, it's that NOT ALL SHALL FALL ASLEEP IN DEATH. If someone dies they are instantly fallen asleep in death are they not? And we know flesh can't go to heaven. But this scriptures describes how this happens, it says "we shall not all fall asleep in death, but we shall BE CHANGED, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the LAST TRUMPET". (It's interesting what happens during the 7th trumpet in Rev, and I think that's what it may be referencing). But vs 52 says the dead are raised and WE ARE CHANGED.
What is interesting is that article did reference 'parts' of those scriptures. It ignored the sacred secret about not all dying, and ignored bout the living being caught away.
It seems very obvious, when the dead anointed are raised, any who are alive, will not die, but as 1 Cor says have their bodies transformed. The article OMITTED the scripture above which says its a sacred secret, that not all shall fall asleep in death. Because they tell us, those who die now, it will be like the twinkling of an eye, and raised up. But if you die now, you STILL DIED. They are clear some will be alive and have a change, and that the rule all starts at the same time.
If you read the article, you'll see earlier they make the claim that ALL ANOINTED MUST DIE. The scripture quoted did not say that, it just said how the dead would be raised up. If you agree w/ the earlier claim in that article (you have to read it to understand what I am saying) then please show how.
Also the 'last trumpet', compare that w/ what happens at the last trumpet in Revelation, it may or may not be related.
In the article, it's very disturbing how they get to the viewpoint that dead anointed communicate w/ ones on earth. First it's based on the 24 elders and the 144,000 being the same.
I found things contrary and bobcat found some great points.
Rev 5:6-10 the elders are speaking about the 144,000 so they can't be speaking about themselves now can they?
Rev 5:8 the elders are holding the prayers of the holy ones (anointed), if it's their own why didn't it say their own?
Rev 5:11,12 - the elders here are there before the lamb was even worthy to receive the kingdom, how could that be if they were the annointed?
Rev 14:3 - the elders are seen and the 144,000, as two separate entites
Ps 82:1 - may refer to the elders as well, saying Jehovah is in the 'midst'.
Scriptually the only reason JW's believe the 24 elders are the 144,000, in that article they quoted Jesus saying he prepared thrones for them. Well perhaps others besides the 144,000 have thrones as well?
Then the speculation gets real bad, and it's all "maybes', maybe john was on earth, and maybe it means that he represents anointed ones on earth, and maybe it means that in the future that anointed who are raised would communicate truths with him, and maybe since Jesus was dead for 3.5 days that maybe in 1914 it would mean by 1919 the anointed would be resurrected. This is also all based on the false statement that a scripture describing how the anointed would be resurrected implied that they MUST die. This is ignoring within the scriptures quoted that living ones would go up when the dead were resurrected.
Do you not see the speculation and twisting of the scriptures here to teach that anointed have been resurrected since 1919 and been communicating with anointed in Bethel for our teachings? Is THAT why so many things have been wrong and changing? Because they are demonic teachings??
Let alone the scriptures say only the holy spirit, or Jesus would send the SPIRIT OF TRUTH to instruct in all things. Can you find a single scripture that shows otherwise?
OOOOO But what about Revelation, when it speaks of the dead slain ones, who are waiting for judgement.
This is in paragraph 14 and 15. And I ALSO thought of perhaps it's the same as Abels blood crying out, which is also in the article and quoted at Gen 4:10. BUT then the WT says this and I quote, "Were these white robes handed out to pools of blood lying at the base of an altar? Of course not! The robes were given to the individuals whose blood was shed, as it were, on the altar. They sacrificed their lives in Jesus’ name and were now resurrected as spirits."
It seems it was forgotton what Gen 9:4 says, "Only flesh WITH IT'S SOUL, IT'S BLOOD, you must not eat". So the bible identifies the soul as being the blood. So in Rev when it speaks of the souls crying out, it's the same as abel's blood. Their souls/blood crying out for justice, then they are given a robe and told to REST a little while longer. The dead are what, "resting". So their blood/soul crying out and they must remain dead/resting a little while longer.
Will Jehovah even give his holy spirit and understand to those who credit it with dead ones not resurrected? Now many things may start to make sense.
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NEXT TOPIC - Putting words in Jehovah's Mouth. If what we do you can scriptually prove is okay, then I will change my mind. But here is what is done and then I'll show scriptures I see about it.
Just so we are on the same understanding of what everyone believes. I'll quote 2 statements in recent WT articles.
I want to first quote a few statements in the WT articles and an older one to show consistency.
9/15/2010 WT page 15 states
"The Governing Body publishes spiritually encouraging literature in many languages. This spiritual food is based on God’s Word. Thus, what is taught is not from men but from Jehovah.—Isa. 54:13."
"[A mature christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." Watchtower 2001 Aug 1 p.14
"It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision." Watchtower 1957 Jun 15 p.370
Duet 18:20-22 "However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With PRESUMPTUOUSNESS the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him." - In bible times, if something was spoken in Jehovah's name that he did NOT command, that prophet was to die.
Ez 13:3 - Woe to the stupid prophets who are walking after their own spirit, when there is nothing that they have seen! vs6 They have visioned what is untrue and a lying divination, those who are saying, "The utterance of Jehovah is, when Jehovah himself has not sent them, and they have waited to have a word come true. Is it not an untrue vision that you men have visioned, and a lying divination that you have said, when saying, "The utterance of Jehovah is, when I myself have spoken nothing?
Is 5:18 - Woe to those who are drawing error with ropes of untruth, those who are saying; "Let his work hasten; do let it come quickly, in order that we may see it; and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw near and come, that we may know it. Woe to those who are saying that good is bad and bad is good, those who are putting darkness for light and light for darkness, those who are putting bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those wise in their own eyes and discreet even in front of their own faces!
Is 10:1-3 - WOE to those enacting harmful regulations and those who, constantly writing, have written out sheer trouble.
vs 2 - in order to PUSH AWAY the lowly ones from a legal case and to wrest away justice from the afflicated ones of my people.
For apostates, I'm sure all of you have heard how if it was bible times, they would be put to death, since we can't do that now, we spiritually do it. Well if it was bible times, according to just what I listed in Duet, the governing body would be put to death. As you see from my quote above, they do not just suggest things as a possibility, but they demand it be taken as from Jehovah himself. What it's wrong, it's too late to say it's a human mistake. They haven't changed, with all the lives that have been ruined and messed up because of putting faith in them as from Jehovah, they still expect it. According to the scriptures, you do not have to listen to them. Duet alone releases you of that. But look at those PROPHETIC scriptures later. If you read them all in context, this is talking about OUR TIME, NOW!!!
So if they are allowed to make the claim to take everything as from Jehovah, to not put your own bible reading understanding ahead of what they say it means, then please show any scriptures that amount to that.
Infact the Apostle Paul was MAD when the early christians were so accepting of what he said. Read the ENTIRE chapter of 2 Cor 11, and ask yourself why was he upset with them accepting what he said without question? Same as the Governing Body ask us to do. What would happen? Why today is that not encouraged but actually discouraged and results in being disfellowshipped?
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HOW ARE JEHOVAH'S PEOPLE BEING ABUSED????
I am going to quote a few scriptures first, then my questions about them.
Is 3:12-16 - As for my people, it's task assigners are dealing severly, and mere women actually rule over it. O my people, those leading you on are causing you to wander, and the way of your paths they have confused. vs 15 What do you mean mean in that you crush my people, and that you grind the very faces of the afflicted ones? is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies.
In Jeremiah 50:6 says, "A flock of perishing creatures my people has become. Their own shepherds have caused them to wander about."
Ez 34:2,4,5,10, 15 - Woe to the shepherds of Israel who have become feeders of themselves! Is it not the flock that the shepherds ought to feed? The sickened ones you have not strengthened, and the ailing one you have not healed, and the broken one you have not bandaged, and the dispersed one you have not brought back and the lost one you have not sought to find, but with HARSHNESS YOU HAVE HAD THEM IN SUBJECTION, even with tyranny. And they were gradually scattered because of there being no shepherd. vs 10 Here I am against the shepherds, and I shall certainly ask back my sheep from their hand and make them cease from feeding my sheep. vs 11 This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, Here I am, I myself, and I will search for my sheep and care for them. vs 15 I MYSELF shall feed my sheep, and I MYSELF shall make them lie down. vs 16 the lost one I shall search for, and the dispersed one I shall bring back, and the broken one I shall bandage and the ailing one I shall strenghen, but the fat one and the strong one I shall annihilate, I shall feed that one with judgement.
Okay, first I want to point something out very important in regards to the old testament. We consider everything up till Matt to be part of the old testament. The laws and everything were part of the torah, the PROPHET BOOKS are different, if you have not noticed, they go right into and some of them beyond armageddon. But all of them go into the day of Jehovah. This is important to know, because some of these scriptures you may want to say applied to ancient Israel, but many of them apply to his modern day people, (especially evident in the Jeremiah 50:6, because that whole chapter is detailing the downfall of Babylon the Great, the same prophesy mentioned in Revelation). So please don't be so quick to dismiss that the scriptures speaking about shepherds, leaders, etc, is not speaking about us, TODAY. The question is if it is, then what exactly would be the things happening that make it apply.
I think the last section I touched upon what Is 3:12-16 could apply, with commands and such if not from God, but from men being given and followed the same as the weight from Jehovah, and if not from him, having bad consequences.
Ez 34 is very big and eye opening. It's saying the shepherds are not feeding the sheep, and the lost and afflicted they are not healing. Consider this, what do we teach are things neccessary for one to be spiritually strong? (whether true or not doesn't matter, just what we teach at the moment). Meetings, associate with brothers and sisters, commenting, preaching, giving talks. Now all men are imperfect and sin, and ALL sin is deserving of death. Now when someone commits a sin that we believe requires a judicial committe, if it's a major sin, they are considered weak for having done a major sin.
Now, does our process follow the example of the shepherd in Matt 18:12 - "What do you think? If a certain man comes ot have a hundred sheep and one of them gets strayed, will he not leave the 99 upon the mountains and set out on a search for the one that is straying?"
In Matt 18:12, that shepherd leaves all the others, to take and care for that one. So it would seem to help make it strong, he would encourage it to comment, go in service with it, study with it, help make sure it has good association, encourage it to give talks, etc. We teach someone who doesn't do any of those things will get weak. So this person or weak sheep, who IS sorry, goes to the elders, and even if they don't disfellowship them, they cut it off from what others must to do be strong. And lets say they were judged to have made a mistake too many times, Jesus said in Luke 17:3 PAY ATTENTION to yourselves. If your brother commits a sin give him a rebuke, and if he repents forgive him. 4 Even if he sins seven times a day against you and he comes back to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
But the sheep are judged and if one it judged to have made a mistake too much it may be automatic disfellowshipping, OR if they were sinning and didn't turn around for awhile, depending how long, etc.
There is a difference between someone who says I am going to go ahead and do what I want and someone who said I sin, please forgive me, please help me I am weak. One doesn't care, and one may just have a problem. If forgiven, they are cut off from most things, and if not, from everything. It's like the shepherd SHOOTING the lost sheep, and if the lost sheep doesn't die, if months or years later he sees it struggling and still trying to come back, he may feel regret then take him back in. If someone sinned supposedly too much, should not the shepherd study with them, and encouarge commenting, etc. Instead they are being cut off from what is taught to be vital to be strong and completely left on their own. ISOLATED, inhumane. Those who want to do what's right, who dont' have worldly or bad assocation, who truly weak, whether circumstance or mental issues, only Jehovah knows, are isolated for months to years and left to heal themselves.
Why do we do this? And for the record I have NEVER been disfellowshipped. So this is not a complaint because of personal experience. I feel pain and hurt for what seems to only hurt the good people. This practice is NOT keeping the congregation clean either. Let me explain, 6 or 7 years ago I went to a JW gathering after recently moving to a new area. There were about 60 to 75 who were at this home for a JW party. I had been to some where alcohol was available and everyone was responsible and good about it. I rode with another to get there, and this one, almost everybody was drunk, they were cursing, some fights broke out, some passed out from drinking so much, I was in shock, it felt like ALL of them should have been disfellowshipped. I heard of those things happening in small groups, I couldn't believe such a large group, that ALL of them would be like that. The process is not working. Those who are truly bad association will hide or not care and keep quiet, or they are just too afraid so they can't get the help they need. People think if they are in good standing they are good association, that is not true. So the bad don't have anything to worry about, and the good ones get cut off and they are on their own or atleast restricted. Now IF this was Jehovah's way he wanted us to do things, it wouldn't make sense why it wouldn't be working, but if you look again into this practice we do, and really look at the scriptures, we aren't doing it according to how the early christians did, we aren't doing it Jehovah's way!
I recently read an article, "Can sins be forgiven", or titled similar and I can't find it again at the moment. What's interesting was that EVERYTHING in it was true. It said that the most elders can do is hear someones confession and then pray for healing and forgiveness for them and also encourage them and THAT'S IT! I agree, in all the scriptures I had come to the same conclusion.
But how do we have the practice of judicial committees and disfellowshipping? There is the scripture about the man who took his fathers wife as his own. There is also the scriptures on those who cause divisions, etc.
The man who took his fathers wife as his own, was he asking for forgiveness? Paul was pointing out that he was practicing things SO BAD even among the nations/worldy people it was bad. So get rid of him.
There is NO SCRIPTUAL backing, or mention of somebody who sins, who asks for forgiveness, having a judicial committee. What's also interesting, is the scripture quoted to those about getting discipline from Jehovah and to support removing privileges is 1 Cor 11:32 "32 However, when we are judged, we are disciplined by Jehovah, that we may not become condemned with the world.".
Read that in context, starting in vs 27, it's speaking about those who drink of the wine and eat the bread UNWORTHILY. It says when doing that they are taking judgement on them, and if unworthy, they were being displined by Jehovah. That's why many were sick. I don't understand how that relates to judging somebody and disciplining them.
Also, many are told it's Jehovah who forgave or who chooses them to be disfellowshipped. Those disfellowshipped are told or it's been taught that they are not in Jehvah's favor and if Armageddon was to come, they would die. This is again putting words in Jehovah's mouth. If elders are not inspired and since they are humans and don't know everything and all factors, it's impossible to know Jehovah's feelings on it. I know a brother who left and said he was going to do all he wanted and when he was done he'd return, get reinstated and then everything is fine. Whether somebody is disfellowshipped or not, there is no way to know how Jehovah views them. Telling them they are okay or not is not biblical.
So somebody sins, is sorry, gets disfellowshipped, they have a sickness which makes meetings and other things hard, it can go years, they feel Jehovah doesn't care for them because she is told he was the one who decided that and he is the one not reinstating her, they were sorry and repenting just by going to the elders, they are now isolated, elders aren't happy seeing them irregular, and it's situations beyond her control, how does Jehovah feel about all of that?
There are so many scriptures that say NOT to judge. Even Paul said he would not go before a human tribunal, nor does he even judge himself, because he has no idea if he has done wrong or not. Judging is for Jehovah.
1 Cor 4:3 "Now to me it is a very trivial matter that I should be examined by YOU or by a human tribunal. Even I do not examine myself. 4 For I am not conscious of anything against myself. Yet by this I am not proved righteous, but he that examines me is Jehovah. 5 Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God."
James 5:9 Do not heave sighs against one another, brothers, so that YOU do not get judged.
This one is very powerful, Roman 2:1 - 3 "Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are, if you judge; for in the thing in which you judge another, you condemn yourself, inasmuch as you that judge practice the same things. 2 Now we know that the judgment of God is, in accord with truth, against those who practice such things.
3 But do you have this idea, O man, while you judge those who practice such things and yet you do them, that you will escape the judgment of God?
Consider this, first elders are being told they are judging for Jehovah. The scriptures say not to judge, that's for Jehovah, and he will bring everything to light, and Romans right here says if you do judge, you will get the same judgement you hand out. Since the elders are instructed that there are limits to how much a man can sin, for example if he committed fornication maybe 2 or 3 times over a 5 or 10, or 15 year period, just the fact it happened more then one time, he may have to be disfellowshipped. It doesn't matter if maybe he is not married, or has a chemical imbalance, or whatever the reason. It doesn't matter that worldly people may commit fornication 100 or 200 times a year, but because this person, even if long spread out, more then 1 time, whatever the reason, he may get disfellowshipped. Now ALL sin is worthy of death is it not? But if this judging process is not according to the bible, if it is due to misinterpretations and mans commands, then these elders may find that Jehovah will only excuse 2 or 3 of their sins. Also since their judgements put Jehovah's name on them as from him, if Jehovah did no such thing, that's further trouble, and finally since they are supposed to be the shepherds if what they are told to do Jehovah doesn't view as caring for them but afflicting and abusing them.
I had for a long time wanted to be an elder, but after careful reflection of the scriptures and knowing what they must do, I could never do it.
Again it's strange, the public watchtower that was speaking of "Is forgiveness of sins possible" (not sure again if that's the title but was similar) it taught the truth and made sense what they could do.
There is only so much we can do, do not the scriptures say let the wheat grow with the weeds for fear that removing the weeds might kill some wheat as well. Someone who flat out just doesn't care and will do bad things is one thing, but as for sinning and how much, if everyone understood that it doesn't matter what their condition is with the congregation, people may or may NOT be good association, they have to let the bible and the persons conduct determine that. Also if those who sinned can get prayer and help, the elders could just work with them, encourage them, those who need help would not be afraid to get it. The weak wouldn't be cast out on their own. Overall that's how the scriptures seem to state it should be done and would turn out better for everyone.
The ONLY scriptures I see on actually judging are speaking about brothers taking eachother to court, and how the anointed will judge angels, they should be able to judge and settle that matter instead as well. It's not about sins and those are the anointed it was speaking about to judge on those things as well. All elders are not anointed.
I WAS to going go on another topic or 2, but this is very long as it is. I'll see if any including Recovery even respond to this.
Questions for Recover and ANY JW here, if can be explained I'll return to JW.
by EndofMysteries 15 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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EndofMysteries
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EndofMysteries
Recovery and any others, I know that looks long, a lot of it are quoted scriptures. The whole thing is based on scriptures vs our teachings on those things. It's not a generic cut/paste thing. I typed out the whole thing. It's well worth looking at if you truly want to do what's right in the bible.
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Tater-T
looked at it.. very long only read first one.. do they say some have been raised to heaven already?.. thats new to me ..
that wouldn't fly at all with the Bible..
Makes me think if Christ returned why is there any anointed left?
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Recovery
Can you please make a simple list of questions that you would like answered. Your explanation is fine but I just need a direct question.
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Paralipomenon
Can you please make a simple list of questions that you would like answered. Your explanation is fine but I just need a direct question.
What color was George Washington's white horse?
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EndofMysteries
Okay recovery
Read that whole post then.
1. Why do we believe the anointed are raised and communicating with the anointed still alive at bethel when the scriptures clearly teach they both go to heaven at the same time.
2. Why do we teach the anointed who are alive must die and possibly even survive into armagedon when the scriptures I listed above clearly show that they will have their bodies transformed into spirit if they happen to still be alive when the time comes?
3. Why do we believe that anointed would even communicate with anointed on earth when the scriptures are clear only the holy spirit does that?
4. Why do we believe we are bound to follow the words and WT as strongly as the word of Jehovah himself when the scriptures clearly show that anybody who says anything in Jehovah's name that doesn't go true, should be put to death and not feared? Why is is okay for the Governing Body to demand to take everything as from Jehovah? They SHOULD be saying we 'think' but go with your bible conscience and scriptures, INSTEAD as you see quoted, they demand to be obeyed and accepted as if from Jehovah himself.
5. Why do we remove commenting, field service, association, etc, from people who are spiritually weak enough to have committed a major sin, when the scriptures clearly they can only be prayed for by the elders, encouraged, and as shown by the shepherd in Matt they should grab hold of that lost sheep and help and nurse them to health. It's a fact if somebody sins too many times, lets say you commit fornication, then 3 or 4 years later you do again, then maybe 3 years later again, you will be disfellowshipped if they felt too many times? Jesus commanded that even 7 times a DAY if they repent you MUST forgive them. How does isolating them, which scriptures show is bad, not allowing anything, and for 6 months to several years compare to the shepherd who left the 99 other sheep and helped that one? They don't help the hurt and lost, they SHOOT them. WHY? The only example in the bible was a man who was having relations with his fathers WIFE, SO BAD even the nations were shocked. It doesn't say he confessed to a sin and stopped and then they had a trial to judge him.
6. If you still feel disfellowshipping as we do is scriptual, what does Paul mean in 1 Cor 4:3-5 Now to me it is a very trivial matter that I should be examined by YOU or by a human tribunal. Even I do not examine myself. 4 For I am not conscious of anything against myself. Yet by this I am not proved righteous, but he that examines me is Jehovah. 5 Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God.
7. After reading the first part, how can you NOT see the belief that the anointed are resurrected beginning in 1919, yet still ones alive on earth today, since it's against all scriptures, that the claim that dead anointed are communicating spiritual truths is not demons or spiritism?
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EndofMysteries
And I thought things were going to long so I stopped on my first post, but for question 8. Based on the entire history of ancient Israelites, anytime things went bad did Jehovah try to white wash it? He exposed, even the kings HE PUT in power, if they went bad. Also if the king's lead the people astray, they weren't obligated to obey the kings, infact if they followed the kings into bad things, THEY WERE ALL punished or killed. So even if the organization is his people, based on past history, if the leaders go astray, we are personally accountable as well. We MUST make sure we are not going against his word. There is no excuse that you were just following orders. Along those lines, it's a fact and known that trying to protect his name, things were covered up and tried to remain hidden. In the entire bible he is against injustice and persecuting the afflicted. I know for a fact elders tried to silence child abuse victims because one of my family members was told the same thing, this was right before 1998.
So my question for 8 is, why do you feel we must obey them no matter what, and that it's okay to whitewash things to protect Jehovah's name, when based on the entire bible history, neither is done by him or acceptable by him.
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EndofMysteries
Recovery asking for more questions, hasn't answered any of this yet. Even after I gave specific questions.
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bobld
You should never listen or read their propaganda.
As an Example Nov 2012 awake p28 understanding the Bible:They quote 6 scripture about the dead.
With the following description"The Bible teaches the dead are actually dead.They are not alive in
heaven or somewhere else but are asleep.HENCE,THEY CANNOT PRAISE GOD OR EVEN THINK."
So by their logic the 144,000 are dead, are actually dead,they cannot even think.
So there you have it.They 144,000 cannot give any instruction to the anointed on earth,THEY ARE DEAD
ARE ACTUALLY DEAD.
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The Searcher
I no longer misuse the term 'anointed', because as I did deeper Bible research, I quickly realised that there are those who are 'heavenly hopers', and there are those who are 'earthly hopers' - but all are anointed by God's Holy Spirit when they accept Christ as God's means of redemption from sin and death.
Please examine what the Scriptures have to say, and then base your reasoning on God's inspired Word, not on uninspired writings of men which vacillate in their interpretations every few years.
Acording to the Bible, who are "anointed" in God's eyes?
The term 'anointed' occurs in the Greek Scriptures. In all but one of the verses, they refer to Jesus. In the remaining verse, it applies to Christ's disciples. (2 Corinthians 1:21)
The term 'anointing' occurs 3 times in the Greek Scriptures. (1 John2:20,27)
All three verses refer to the disciples of Christ.
".................we belong to Christ and he who has anointed us is God."
(2 Corinthians 1:20)"And YOU have an anointing from the holy one; all of YOU have knowledge"; "And as for YOU, the anointing that YOU received from him remains in YOU, and YOU do not need anyone to be teaching YOU; but, as the anointing from him is teaching YOU about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught YOU, remain in union with him."
(1 John 2:20,27)John the Baptist said, "I baptized YOU with water, but he will baptize YOU with holy spirit."
(Mark 1:8)The Apostle Peter added further evidence, "At this I called to mind the saying of the Lord, how he used to say, ‘John, for his part, baptized with water, but YOU will be baptized in holy spirit', God gave the same free gift to them as he also did to us who have believed upon the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 11:16,17)
"For truly by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit."
(1 Corinthians 12:13)What were Jesus' very last words to his disciples before he returned to heaven? "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit." (Matthew 28:19)
There are some who maintain that every Christian up to 1935 C.E. were part of the 144,000 heavenly hope.
Nowhere
in the Christian Greek Scriptures is there even a hint that everyone who believed in Jesus was automatically chosen to be in heaven with him.In 1935, 52,465 Witnesses partook of the Memorial emblems, indicating that they had the heavenly hope.
Therefore, only 91,535 genuine Christians existed during the previous 1902 years??
"Test the inspired expressions to see if they originate with God".