Our Sins

by radar 28 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Xander

  . I said they already knew good. For they already knew God, and "God is good."

  Knowing of the existence of someone does not give you the ability to 'know' their attributes. Walking alongside someone in a park does not let you know anything about them. Even talking with them reveals little.

  If you had no knowledge of Good or Evil, certainly, just talking with someone would not give you knowledge of such things.

  I maintain it can't be proved they DID know 'good'.

  Although I have not mentioned it before, it seems relevant here, I further maintain that 'good' and 'evil' are abstract values and neither can exist without the other. IE., how can you define 'good' without having 'evil' to compare it against?

  I am willing to discuss this subject matter further with you if you are really trying to understand the scriptures.

  I'm sure we could debate this to some length.

  I don't, however, suspect that this will be an efficient use of either of our time. I get the feeling your are as firm in your position as I am in mine.

  A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
  --George Santayana
• 

  julien

  So, God was confronted with a dilemma. On one hand, He had already decreed that only those who are perfectly righteous are deserving of eternal life. Thus He had, in effect, demanded that a very high price be paid for billions of unrighteous human lives. That price was billions of eternal human deaths. On the other hand, God wanted to give every human being the gift of eternal life, even though none of us deserved it, and even though His own high standards prohibited him from giving us that gift.

  I don't know why God didn't just lower his standards for who deserves to live? Especially considering the fact that he created us in such a way that it was completely impossible to meet his standards in the first place. The entire thing seems primitive and contrived, IMHO. Sitting here trying to reason it out is about like trying to work out the exact location of Santa's house based on patterns of present distribution.
• 

  aChristian

  Radar,

  You wrote: You can't have it both ways. ... By your logic this means that god aint free! for he can do no wrong.

  I don't try to have it both ways. For I never said God was free in the way that we are. We are free in that we are able to either live our lives in the way that God wants us to live them, or to live our lives in a way that is contrary to God's wishes. God is not free in such a way. He must, of course, always behave according to His wishes.
• 

  gumby

  Quote..."Say you have a 3 year old. Old enough to understand English, can even communicate a little, but knowledge of right vs wrong is completely out of their grasp. You tell them not to pick up a gun and shoot people because it's wrong. You then leave the gun, loaded, in the middle of the room on the floor so it's good and easy to get at".

  Your comparing Adams ability and comprehension with that of a 3 year old.
  A little 3 year old, has not learned experiences with consequences of doing Good or Bad.

  Was Adam created with the comprehension of Bad and Good? Much better than a 3 year old?

  If he was.....and God evidently PROGRAMMED him with KNOWLEDGE to a degree where he could independantly choose a course that would be JUST, regardless of which course he would choose.......THEN I DON'T SEE YOUR REASONING.
• 

  aChristian

  Julien,

  You wrote: I don't know why God didn't just lower his standards for who deserves to live?

  The idea of low standards in Heaven does not appeal to me. Would you really want to spend eternity in a world filled with people who were quite willing to hurt others to benefit themselves. A world populated with such people, who knew they were immortal, would not be Heaven. It would be Hell. That, I believe, is why God has decided to give immortality only to those who are perfectly righteous.

  The Bible indicates that God will give immortality only to Christians who now desire to live righteously. And it tells us that at the time God gives them immortality, He will also make them "incorruptible." That means they will then all have the ability to do what they now only have the desire to do. To live their lives as righteously as their Lord Jesus Christ lives His. I will enjoy spending eternity with such people. And I'm glad God does not lower His standards.
• 

  aChristian

  Julien,

  You asked: are you saying A&E had knowledge of good so they should have known it was good to obey, but no knowledge of bad so as to satisfy the written implication (since they hadn't yet eaten from the ToKoG&B)?

  To "know" something, in the biblical sense, means to have an intimate knowledge of it. Such as in the statement, "Joseph did not know Mary until after she had given birth to Jesus."

  That being the case, Adam and Eve had an intimate knowledge of good before they disobeyed God. For they personally knew by experience all the good things being obedient to God brought them. But until they disobeyed God they did not really "know" evil. For they had no intimate knowledge of evil. For such a "knowledge" would include having experienced the harmful effects of evil, a knowledge which Adam and Eve only acquired after they disobeyed God.
• 

  Xander

  Your comparing Adams ability and comprehension with that of a 3 year old.

  Yes - the bible does not say he had the ability to reason until AFTER he hate from the tree.

  A little 3 year old, has not learned experiences with consequences of doing Good or Bad.

  That's true. Neither did Adam (UNTIL he ate from the tree)

  Was Adam created with the comprehension of Bad and Good? Much better than a 3 year old?

  No. As I've mentioned, reading the scriptures in question literally, you come to the conclusion Adam DID NOT have reasoning abilities beyond a three-year old. Hell, 'god' might have CREATED Adam as a 3 year old. The bible doesn't say. Alls it says is 'god created Adam', 'god created Eve', 'Eve had no problems talking with a snake' (c'mon, how many adults talk to animals?), 'Adam and Eve did not realize they were naked' (again, compare adult knowledge of clothing to 3 year olds), UNTIL THEY ATE FROM THE TREE.

  To "know" something, in the biblical sense

  It does not always mean this. You are making an assumtion, on which your whole argument rests.

  You know, this thread is just not going anywhere. We really should drop it.

  A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
  --George Santayana
• 

  gumby

  Yes - the bible does not say he had the ability to reason until AFTER he hate from the tree.

  Just oooooooooooooooone more thing before we go!!!!

  To say that Adam and Eve "knowing good and bad" is equated with having the power to reason does not fit.

  A person may hear of and see the results from cancer, but until he has it, will he ever experience the effects of it.
• 

  aChristian

  Xander,

  I wrote: To "know" something, in the biblical sense ......

  You responded: It does not always mean this. You are making an assumption, on which your whole argument rests.

  Yes, I am. But my assumption is a reasonable one with biblical support. And if it is a correct one then the whole story of Adam and Eve and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad makes sense.