Our Sins

by radar 28 Replies latest jw friends

  • radar
    radar

    Why The Ransom?

    When you think of all those suffering today and throughout the generations, and all this happened just because two inexperienced people went up against a powerful spirit creature and lost.!

    Now, if someone is in jail, lets say for something like stealing, someone can perhaps pay for their release on bail. Yet if someone is convicted for a crime that carries the death penalty, no-one, repeat no-one, can pay for the release of that one, neither can they Swap places/ransom with that one because that would not be justice!
    Adam's sin incurred death, as pronounced, so justice was met with Adams death.

    Yet God makes Adam’s offspring continue to pay the price with their own lives 6000yrs or so onward! So where is the justice and Mercy?
    Why should God require people to repent over something they had no control over?

    If now mankind is deserving of death through sin, how can someone else pay it?
    We are deserving of death! justice demands we pay for it, no one else can!.
    Jesus ransom would be unjust and therefore is useless, But If we are not deserving of death then why the ransom and why death?

  • gumby
    gumby

    Why should God require people to repent over something they had no control over?
    If now mankind is deserving of death through sin, how can someone else pay it?

    Why does Mcdonalds buy land in the desert? Do you know? They do....and their right.
    My point is this...much of the questions we ask on this board about Gods justice, is based on a human point of view with limited knowledge. The bible has shown time and again the wisdom of it's word that appeared foolish in times past.

    Why would God ask us to repent? If he said it like this....."you are bad! You shouldn't do what you do! Say your sorry you bad person!
    If he said it like this I would be a little ticked.

    However....does he? Doesn't he know we are weak, and hasn't he admitted it?

    Hasn't he had the bible writers explain how he would deliver us FREELY?

    If that is his way, and not our way, does it make his way wrong?

  • Beck_Melbourne
    Beck_Melbourne

    Hi Radar

    I always used to see an injustice in that...when you say 2 inexperienced people...I have to agree. I have worked for the Justice Department and have been involved with penalties for crime etc...and I used to wonder to myself...how would it be if the judge told a convicted murderer that he was going to sentence the accused to death "together" with his seed for generations to come? It would never happen...the justice system is designed to admonish punishment on the 'guilty' party only...yet God is 'Justice'.

    I also used to ponder over the warning A & E were given prior to their disobedience. Were they as fatherless and motherless individuals able to comprehend the impact of their disobedient act? Despite the fact that they were perfect...they were as you say 'inexperienced'...how could they know that their children's children would be affected to such a large degree? Eve had never suckled a child at her breast...and she had never known the bonding and overwhelming joy that comes with motherhood...do you think she would have thought twice before her random act of recklessness if she had experienced the nurturing joy common to all/most mothers? I just think that when you have kids...you feel that you have more to live for...and so you try harder to preserve yourself for their sake, if that makes any sense.

    Interesting and thought provoking post...well done.

    Beck

  • chezza
    chezza

    very good point here

  • Xander
    Xander

    I'd take that a step further. I never got the impression from the Biblical accounts that Adam and Eve were what we would today consider 'sentient'. They had no idea they were naked?? Talking snakes didn't even cause them to bat an eye??? They had no knowledge of good and bad????

    I think that was the kicker for me. Their sin was eating from a tree that gave them knowledge of good and bad. In other words, getting a conscience was their sin. WTF???

    Back when I was in the borg (as a kid), I dreaded the new system. People returning to the state they were in Eden? I could just imagine herds of naked people walking around like hairless chimpanzees, picking their noses and hanging from trees....*shudder*

    (Of course, harkening over to the 'monkey stories' thread - this might very well be what this creation tale was about, ehh? People who were naked, did not know good from bad, could talk with animals, etc? From them came 'real' humans who had to worship a god as directed by a select group of his agents. How about that - right under your noses the whole time!)

    A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
    --George Santayana
  • Beck_Melbourne
    Beck_Melbourne

    I also wonder then...since the consequences of eating from that tree provided them with the privilege of knowing 'good and bad' (ie. a conscience) will this ability be retracted in the new system?? Is this not a step 'backwards'?

    Beck

    ps...xander..do u really think the new system masses will be picking their noses??? Will perfect noses still produce nasal mucus? Just wondering lol.

  • Xander
    Xander

    ROFLMAO...hey, I was a kid.

    I mean, it never occurred to me our immune systems would be able to be returned, as we wouldn't need them anymore.

    It's funny just thinking about it now, but DAMN it had me scared as a kid!

    A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
    --George Santayana
  • aChristian
    aChristian

    The only way the story of Adam and Eve makes sense is to understand that God not only knew how things were going to end up in Eden, but that He deliberately set the whole thing up to make a point. What point? This one. If Adam in paradise, without a problem in the world, could not manage to obey one simple command from God, what chance does any human being have of living their entire trouble-plagued life without sinning either in word, thought or deed? No chance at all. That is the lesson that was illustrated in Eden. Human beings have a sinful nature. A nature which God gave us.

    Why did God give us a "sinful" nature? Because "God is love" He wanted to create people whom He could have a loving relationship with. But since true love can be neither forced nor programmed, in order to have loving relationships with us, God had to create us as free people. Free to choose to love God and His ways or to not love God and His ways. In other words, free to do both right and wong, free to do both good and evil.

    Because we can do wrong and often do, and because God can't do wrong and never does, we are less righteous than God. And because we are none of us deserve to live forever. That means all human beings have, in effect, from their births been condemned by God to die. Not because of anything Adam did, but because we ourselves all fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)

    So, the Ransom really had nothing to do with Adam. The sins God holds against us are our own, not Adam's. And our sins are what Christ gave His life to pay for.

    Why did Christ have to die to pay for our sins? God's standards are very high. He long ago decreed that only those who are perfectly righteous are worthy of eternal life. Of course, this meant that God had in effect also decreed that all who are not perfectly righteous must die. But despite God's extremely high standards, like many loving parents, God has always wanted to give His children more than they deserve.

    So, God was confronted with a dilemma. On one hand, He had already decreed that only those who are perfectly righteous are deserving of eternal life. Thus He had, in effect, demanded that a very high price be paid for billions of unrighteous human lives. That price was billions of eternal human deaths. On the other hand, God wanted to give every human being the gift of eternal life, even though none of us deserved it, and even though His own high standards prohibited him from giving us that gift. But fortunately for us all, God found a way to offer all of us the gift of eternal life without violating His own high standards pertaining to who is deserving of that gift.

    The Bible tells us that God did this by allowing His only begotten Son to pay for the unrighteousness of billions of human beings with His own life. But how could God consider only one death, a death which only lasted from Friday afternoon until the following Sunday morning, to have equal or greater value than many billions of human deaths, deaths which would last forever? He could do so because He considered the three days of life which His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, gave up to be more valuable than many billions of eternal human lives. Why? Because God knew that Jesus Christ was far more than a human being. God also knew that Jesus Christ was far more than "a perfect human being," or "Adam's equal" as some of the cults like to call Him. God knew that Jesus Christ, as His only begotten Son, was also God. And because Jesus Christ was God, His Father considered His death, and His three lost days of life which followed His death, to be worth far more than many billions of eternal human lives.

    Some have said that God requiring the life of His own Son to pay for our sins is an example of "primitive thinking." Is it? No, it was not. It was an example of His perfect justice, His great mercy and His amazing love. For the Bible tells us that God loves us all so much that He was willing to buy us all eternal life, even though to do so He had to pay for it "with His own blood." (Acts 20:28)

  • Justin
    Justin

    I think this question of the Ransom needs to be looked at from a historical perspective, and several different Ransom "theories" (if you will allow the expression) appreciated in order to comprehend the situation.

    The early followers of Jesus of Nazareth, who believed him to be the Messiah, were faced with the problem of how to account for his untimely death. The Messiah was expected to be the Deliverer and King of Israel, not to die a martyr's death. It was at this point that the prophecy of Isaiah (53) was brought to bear, that in his death Messiah bore the sins of others. This means that it was a substitutionary death.

    The problem remained to account for how this could be so. It was Paul who appears to be the first one to tie Jesus' death in with Adam's transgression (Romans 5). Just as the whole race was condemned from the disobedience of one man (Adam), so the entire race had at least the potential of being saved through the obedience (in death) of the one man (Jesus Christ).

    Theological speculation has further led to theories of how the entire race could be affected by the one man's sin - was it that we were all genetically within Adam (and Eve) so that the sentence upon them automatically passed upon us (Augustine's theory), or was it that through the Fall the weaknesses derived from that sin passed upon their descendants so that we all commit our own sins (Eastern Orthodox and JW theory)?

    How could Christ substitute in death? The WT position, going all the way back to Pastor Russell (at least they have been consistent in this!) is that just as Adam had a potential race "in his loins," so Jesus also had a perfect race within him that was never actualized. Instead, because of his sacrifice, he adopts Adam's children. But the orthodox Christian view (if a substitionary theory is accepted) is that Christ, being himself the Creator as the Second Person of the Trinity, is able to offer to the Father a sacrifice of infinite worth that can cover whatever sin and transgression has been committed.

    However, it should be stressed that thetr are theories of how Christ's sacrifice works that could not even be considered substitionary in the strictest sense. One could hold to a theory based on Paul's teaching about baptism, that believers are baptized into Christ's death so that, as members of his Body, they are raised to newness of life - that going through the process of death and resurrection with Christ, the creation is restored. (Romans 6) If one accepts this view, it is not even necessary to believe in a historical Adam and Eve; one could view the Biblical story as merely a paradigm of how all humans go astray (later to be redeemed by Christ).

    So the Ransom concept grew out of the historical situation of the early Christian community, and its meaning has been narrowed down within specific traditions (including Russell and the WT).

    Justin

  • Xander
    Xander

    Free to choose to love God and His ways or to not love God and His ways. In other words, free to do both right and wong, free to do both good and evil.

    Yeah, but they didn't KNOW good or evil until they 'ate' from that tree, which was their sin.

    How is this fair?

    A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
    --George Santayana

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