You Know: Matt. 10:11-14, Please Respond

by tfs 25 Replies latest jw friends

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  tfs

  You Know:

  Matthew 10:11-14 says,

  "Into WHATEVER CITY OR VILLAGE YOU ENTER, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. When you are entering into the house, greet the household; and if the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. WHEREVER ANYONE DOES NOT TAKE YOU IN OR LISTEN TO YOUR WORDS, on going out of that house OR THAT CITY and SHAKE THE DUST OFF YOUR FEET."

  And Luke 9:5 adds,

  "And wherever people do not receive you, on going out of that city shake the dust off your feet for A WITNESS AGAINST THEM."

  Recently, Jesus' clear disciple-making instructions at Matt. 10:11-14 and Luke 9:5 have come up for discussion, in light of the manner in which JWs carry on their insistent and relentless "preaching" work in modern times. As it were, when all else fails, resorting to using "Caesar's" law (and man's court system) to literally FORCE "Cities" and townships to hear their message repeatedly, year in and year out, whether they want to or not. The Stratton, Ohio/Supreme Court hearing for example.

  Some bible students feel, given what we have read above, this is 180 degrees OPPOSITE of the explicit counsel of Jesus given to his true disciples.

  Seeing how these are the actual words of the Lord, and "his" plain instructions on how to carry on the christian preaching activity to a "city" that does not "receive" or respond well to the "christian" message, how do you explain WTS court action, past and recent?

  In other words, what happened to the part of Jesus' instructions to humbly and quietly, "shake off the dust from your feet", as a "witness against" them so that the Lord himself could be the final judge?

  Why aren't JWs and WTS complying with that part of Jesus' instructions?

  This aggressive "legal" move (WTS Court Action) upon the parts of the WTS and JWs, actually could be intrepreted by sincere observers as underlying contempt for the Lord's original instructions, thus showing brazen disobedience. The present day mode of procedure (to use "Caesar's" law to attack "cities") to increase "preaching" privileges for JWs, seems to the sincere observers, completely contrary to the "spirit" and "content" of the explicit instructions left by the Lord Jesus. Especially the part, say, on the matter of preaching to unresponsive "cities" and obediently "shaking the dust off your feet" as a "witness against" such ones. So that the Lord can be the final judge of the matter.

  Anything beyond this is retaliation on the "christian's" part.

  True Christians were never advised to take unresponsive individuals to "court" and using the "world's" legal system to cram and jam the message "down their throats". Where is that taught in Holy Scripture? And how are you letting the Lord be the final judge, when you are attempting to force the issue? (See Luke 9:5.)

  Here is the original thread where this matter was discussed.

  Your response please.

  >> http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=22501&site=3

  tfs
• 

  Fredhall

  TFS,

  Why are you not complying with Jesus instruction in Matthew 24:14?
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  ThiChi

  Instructions for Disciple making? Seems to me Jesus was just giving instructions on how to obtain lodging.....
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  Kenneson

  How does Matt. 24:14 negate Matt. 10:11-14?
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  tfs

  ThiChi,

  Yes, obtaining lodging but "obtaining lodging" for what purpose?

  What was the purpose of the visit, to the "city" or "village"? To just "obtain lodging"? Or, more.

  Jesus said, if "they do not listen to you," then do thus and so.

  They were carrying a special "message", in that in the event the listener did not respond, a "witness against them" was noted. (Luke 9:5)

  I'm afraid the disciples of Jesus as recorded at Matt. 10:11-14, were doing more than merely "obtaining lodging". Much more.

  tfs
• 

  ThiChi

  " A simple reading of the account shows that Jesus, after talking to his disciples about things they would need, or might think they would need, in going on a preaching tour, namely, money and food and clothing, then talked about something else they would need on their trip, manely lodging, and that this was the primary concern discussed in his quoted words....By its quoting only a segment of the verse and splitting up the points, the article (WT, July 15, 1979)
  more easily manipulates the mind of the reader." Ray Franz ISOCF, page 320

  “a preaching tour” and how to obtain lodging are two very different goals.

  ""“Jesus' clear disciple-making instructions at Matt. 10:11-14 and Luke 9:5 “""

  Again, I state that Jesus words were not for disciple making, but on how to obtain lodging.

  Much more info in his book on this JW concept.....
• 

  mustang

  Matthew 24:14
  "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come."

  The scripture says "throughout the whole world", not some close at hand portion that has been 'hammered' to near death by over preaching. Take it on the road; China has a lot of openings, so do Afghanistan and Bosnia.

  The scripture also says "as a testimony", not as a bad example.

  Mustang
• 

  tfs

  ThiChi:

  I'm quite familiar with the above information, since I've read both books by RV Franz and have both books in my possession.

  However, I notice that you quote Raymond Franz like he is God himself. He is spoken of in reverential tones by yourself.

  But I must ask you, since when is RV Franz the final "authority" on all scriptural matters? Did RV Franz teach in his books, that we should quote his book, like one would quote the Bible itself? Did that come from RV Franz? (You did quote from his book, that way.)

  Now, if you ask me, this is precisely the mind-set "You Know" has complained about since he has arrived on this discussion board (and before on H2O). The "teachings" of RV Franz espoused as the actual Word of God himself.

  So you think by quoting RV Franz, you've made your point to me?

  ThiChi, Ray Franz may have an opinion. So do others. So SHOULD YOU. So please understand, quoting him as an authority on scripture really means nothing to me. The Bible says we must all develop "thinking ability". And, I think Ray Franz would support such a viewpoint. (Proverbs 1:4)

  I'll tell you what, rather than quote me what RV Franz says, why not simply state your own personal views. YOUR VIEWS. Quotes from RV Franz carries no special weight with me. He is a man. A man. That is all.

  And that is all Ray Franz claimed to be, to my knowledge. A man with an opinion, but with no special claimed insights upon scripture nor its interpretation. This is what I read in his "writings".

  Now, after having said that, I'll say this about what you personally have written. Based upon what you have said thus far, unfortunately, I have to respectfully differ on your personal opinion on this matter.

  The disciples WERE involved in disciple-making. Disciple-making, while on a "preaching tour".

  Now here is my opinion. If you carefully consider Luke 9:5, you will see these are precise "instructions" given by Jesus. (I have no problem with the thought that the disciples were shown HOW to obtain lodging. That is a given. They are on a "preaching tour". I got that point. This is what I understood Ray Franz to mean by the above comments.)

  But they are "preaching". They are "preaching" the "kingdom of God." They are "declaring the good news" of that kingdom. That's the mission. (Luke 9:2, 6)

  Let's look at the context. Luke 9th chapter. Let's consider Luke 9:2,

  "And he sent them out to PREACH THE KINGDOM OF GOD and to heal the sick." NIV

  So these are PREACHING INSTRUCTIONS. They are "preaching the kingdom of God", this is their message.

  Now, lets consider Luke 9:6 says,

  "So they set out and went from village to village, preaching the gospel and healing people everywhere." NIV

  So your point is: they are "obtaining lodging" to carry out a "preaching" assignment or tour. Understood.

  So with that understood, then, are you saying a "preaching tour" is different from "disciple-making" activity? Is that what you object to?

  Are you saying, they are not engaged in "disciple-making" but merely carrying out a "preaching tour", which is different in YOUR mind. Is that what you are saying?

  When I started this thread, the whole purpose was to draw attention to the original thread which had to do with JWs "preaching" to people in "cities" which do not want them there. JWs taking "court action" to enforce the issue, in Stratton, Ohio. That the point I'm really after. The JW viewpoint of that particular "enforcement" which contrasts the instructions given by Jesus to "shake the dust off your feet" when others do not respond to your "preaching".

  But when Jesus said, "when people do not take you in OR, LISTEN TO YOUR WORDS...", what did he mean by this?

  The word "Or," is there. Either action is offensive. To NOT "take one in" (lodging) OR, or, or, to voluntarily refrain from "listening to your words". Either one, either action is OFFENSIVE. So, in either case, the disciples should "shake the dust off their feet as a WITNESS against them". (Matt. 10:14; Luke 9:5)

  So the disciples are instructed to "shake the dust off their feet", if "lodging" IS NOT extended to them? In so doing, Christ cites the attitude of INHOSPITALITY as being offensive to him. The inhospitable attitude of fellow-Israelites, of like faith. Israelites, under the Mosiac Law, who have refused to extend HOSPITALITY in giving "lodging" to his disciples? A hospitality problem for people under the Mosiac Law.

  So, Jesus said in this case, "shake the dust off your feet as a witness AGAINST them." Those inhospitable Jews.

  But Jesus also spoke of another condition, which I think goes hand-in-hand with this inhospitable spirit. Jesus said, "when they do not listen to you". When they do not "receive you".

  In saying this, Jesus is talking about the refusal to "receive" of a "witness" work, a preaching work that is carried out by the disciples of Christ? Thus, a refusal of a "witness" work, or a refusal of a "preaching" assignment, the "preaching of the kingdom of God," a "declaring of the good news" as mentioned at Luke 9:2 and Luke 9:6. Therefore, when one, an Israelite specifically, refuses the "message" of the "good news of the kingdom" that Jesus' disciples were preaching, this would constitute refusal of Christ himself. And a refusal of Christ, would mean a refusal of the One who sent Him, Jehovah God. (Luke 10:6)

  So I propose a "compromise" between your viewpoint (which is actually Ray Franz's) and mine. Perhaps, Jesus meant to "shake the dust off the feet as a witness against them" for doing BOTH things mentioned above. (a) The denial of extension of "hospitality" (lodging) toward a fellow-Israelite, and (b) a clear refusal of "receiving" (did not listen to) the "good news of the kingdom" as presented by the disciples of Jesus.

  I'd say the disciples of Christ were told to "shake the dust off their feet as a witness against" fellow-Israelites who were guilty of both infractions.

  Of course ThiChi, I know you may need to "check in with Ray Franz", before you can forumulate your OWN OPINION on the matter. I understand, if you do.

  tfs
• 

  dungbeetle

  I just love when a thread is addressed to a particular individual; it just SCREAMS for the other 4,000 registered users to answer!!!!

  Jehovah's Witnesses preach that "no other religion is carrying the good news of God's Kingdom to all the inhabited earth" and they be lying sacks of s**t when they say that and 99% of the world's population has always known that since the very beginning of Russell's/Miller's/Barbour's/Ellen G White/ and on and on and on--movements. By their own admission, Jehovah's Witnesses by and large haven't been able to get their message listened to anywhere the Catholic church hasn't gone in and done the grunt work FIRST.

  Jehovah's Witnesses lie about 'preaching the good news'as the reason for the existance of their religion. As their history brings out, their religion was founded, by Miller then Barbour then Russell then Rutherford---because THE END OF THE WORLD WAS COMING AND JESUS WAS COMING TO BRING HIS FOLLOWERS TO HEAVEN WITH HIM. THIS is the truth.

  Their whole religion was founded on what is at the least false prophecy and at the most outright lying for the purpose of bilking people out of money they wouldn't be needing soon. (no money needed in heaven, you know.)

  So when JW's start arguing about the door-to-door work, there's no need to let them get that far. One good thing, tho; every time the Watchtower drags the taxpayers before the Supreme Court over some dum thing, it sends people scrambling for the older literature, newspaper and court filings, and more dumbass stuff comes out about the Watchtower history. It is even causing a revival in some of the older published accounts such as Barbara Harrison's book and William Schnell's book. HeeHeeHee.

  Zero or Negative growth in 150 countries COMING UP-----

  In 1975 a crack team of publishers was sentenced to death by a judicial commiteee. They promptly escaped from the cult and now live life on the run. If you have a problem ... and if you can find them ... maybe you can contact the A--postate Team"
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  ThiChi

  TFS:

  “”However, I notice that you quote Raymond Franz like he is God himself. He is spoken of in reverential tones by yourself.
  But I must ask you, since when is RV Franz the final "authority" on all scriptural matters? Did RV Franz teach in his books, that we should quote his book, like one would quote the Bible itself? Did that come from RV Franz? (You did quote from his book, that way.)”“

  Subject change? Anyhow.......I just agree with Franz on this point. Who said that he was a final “authority” in this matter? I quoted his words so as not to appear that I created the viewpoint. This is information that I feel should be considered.You infer that I am wrong just by citing a published viewpoint, but I am not and it is just a diversion to the subject at hand.

  You infer that my viewpoint is somehow faulty because another person holds the same viewpoint. This is, well, just rubbish. You hold the same viewpoint as the Jws on this issue (see your statement regarding Matt. 10:11-14) , who cares? If I would have paraphrased his viewpoint, I would have been accused of plagiarism and not giving credit where credit is due. Notwithstanding the above, Franz is a very eloquent writer. I could not have said it better.

  To state that Franz would want persons to do their own research (speaking for Franz now? ) is reasonable, and I do research on my own. However, Franz did in fact publish his findings, to what end? Hopefully with a goal to benefit a discussion like the one we are now engaged in.

  """He is spoken of in reverential tones by yourself."""

  Claims without examples are very frustrating. You may have confused “reverential” with “respect” for Franz. The fact is I would probably still be a JW if it was not for his two books. It provided the information I was lacking to see the whole picture. For that I am grateful and he has my utmost respect and I consider him very credible in these matters.

  ""“Jesus' clear disciple-making instructions at Matt. 10:11-14 and Luke 9:5 “""

  You are just plain wrong.....

  I still agree with Franz (sorry) on this point. You are misleading the readers to believe that Jesus was giving instructions on how to make disciples. “A simple reading” shows that he was giving instruction on how to obtain lodging.

  If you want to continue to advocate the JW mantra on this issue, be my guest, I support the right to your viewpoints. However, I don’t agree.