Do JWs have a biblically normative relationship with Jesus christ?

by Vanderhoven7 93 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    Are there invisible people? Why not start with that?

    Do we hear voices or dream dreams that convince us of something?

    I'm not being flippant. I'm addressing a presupposition; a fact not in evidence.

    A foundation has been assumed which cannot be demonstrated using the common rules of evidence.

    Having a "relationship" with an invisible super-being is dotty unless you are a child with an invisible "friend".

    Yet, indoctrinated by religious thought from our infancy, we have no problem at all accepting this startling idea into our mind as: REALITY.

    If we pause to think how far humanity has come in understanding how the universe operates we have Ptolemy, Galileo, Newton and Einstein to thank rather than holy books.

    Germ theory didn't come from scripture or some divine mind channeling wisdom through human scribes. Millions of lives have been saved and illnesses prevented from this one understanding. Yet, Jesus' own disciples didn't wash their hands. What a pity he didn't mention that to them!

    I suppose that sounds tatty on my part. I don't mean it to be. I'm not Atheist or a raving iconoclast. I was reared to see God everywhere and to chat with him like Pinocchio with Jiminy Cricket. But, I'M AN ADULT now and can actually use my intelligence to question odd superstitious ideas!

    Rather than speak on behalf of what Jehovah's Witness minds find credible or indulge in their Governing Body's thirst for supererogations to prove their "faith" I want to directly address YOUR PREMISE.

    Anything which is NORMATIVE is based on a ideal standard.

    Neither Judaism nor Christianity has an AGREED standard. There are and have always been bloody fights about the standard. The same is true of Islam. Their histories have a reddish tinge from the blood flowing from moral confidence the other guy is wrong.

    For the first 1500 years of Christianity it was the CHURCH as the avenue of relating to Christ---oh WAIT! Let's not forget about the Saints and the Priests and the Rituals, shall we?

    With Protestant "Reformation" and the replacement of Magesterium with Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura--every man Jack could cozy up in a comfy chair with the holy spirit whispering sweet "normatives" in his ear...........while across town.....in a different chair with the same bible some other bloke is convinced his "normative" is the bullseye all others must aim for.

    The emotional "experience" of being Born Again is nowhere present in the New Testament with tears and sobbing and such. This is the sort of thing ex-addicts, reformed alcoholics and skid-row turnabouts report with conviction--experienced as they undoubtedly are with out-of-mind visions and other lunacies.

    I can flip on my telly and see raving Gits with puffy hair waving their hands in the air and belching bromides and asking for spare change if I want communion with that brand of JESUS. Well, spare me!

    My brain works now, thank you very much. No thanks to Jehovah's Witnesses or the previous indoctrinations of my Catholic grandmother.

    The idea of snarling devils clustered inside the unwary begging to drown themselves in herds of swine strikes me as COMPLETELY DAFT nonsense!

    Jesus as Clark Kent promising to return "soon" as SUPERMAN is equally unlikely.

    I cannot base my REAL LIFE on the hallucinations of Bronze Age illiterates hand-me-down campfire stories of a SuperJew who is going to get inside me and grant cosmic GPS to my every move.

    That biblically normative relationship would signal I had lost consciousness for sure.

    So, why should we pretend there IS A NORMATIVE or an invisible friend or anything remotely historically probative about the bible?

    I'm just wondering. I've been down that road and it led to the near destruction of my reasoning faculties.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear Terry...

    you said: "Are there invisible people? Why not start with that?"...

    Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (hebrews 2:1-4)

    Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (hebrews 12:1-2)

    these people were not invisible...

    love michelle

    p.s. this latest screed of yours shows you to be bigoted in quite a few different areas btw.

  • wobble
    wobble

    Harry Potter is much more visible, the box set is available, quite cheap on Amazon, of course, he too is fictional.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear wobble...

    because you didn't see Jesus or that great cloud of witnesses then you reasonably conclude that they were invisible and fiction?...

    love michelle

  • Ding
    Ding

    As far as I can tell, JWs don't profess to have any kind of personal relationship with Jesus or Jehovah.

    They don't think it's possible or even want it.

    Jesus is just an historical figure to them, like Moses -- an ancient servant of Jehovah who succeeded (in contrast to your own miserable efforts).

    The whole religion is about obeying and the GB and serving the Watchtower corporation and feeling guilty because you don't do it well enough.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear Ding...

    I think you've stated a correct observation.

    O my...

    I just realised that my last comment to Terry might be too judgemental for some fellow posters sensibilities...

    love michelle

  • designs
    designs

    V- I no longer believe in 'spiritism' but I know its a big deal with certain Christian groups. I remember going out in Service and Charismatics would say 'unless you speak in tongues you don't have the real Jesus', and certain Evangelicals would say 'if you speak in tongues you are demonized'. So go figure, it all became so irrelevant.

    Point being people get the warm and fuzzies over a lot of things they imagine and a JW can certainly get the warm and fuzzies over Michael the Archangel just like a Pentecostal can get hot and bothered over their particular Jesus, ditto for the 1800 other versions of Jesus.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi Ding,

    <<As far as I can tell, JWs don't profess to have any kind of personal relationship with Jesus or Jehovah. They don't think it's possible or even want it.>>

    In all fairness, JWs certainly address, talk to and pray to Jehovah....which cannot be said about their angelic Jesus ... who they never address, talk or pray to.

    So although they might argue that they have a biblically normative relationship with God...they cannot legitimately claim the same for the risen Christ.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear Vander...

    I think that for a JW to address, talk to and pray to Jehovah God...isn't really the personal relationship that the Spirit encourages..."ABBA Father".

    love michelle

    p.s. if the JW's believe that Jesus is an angel it only stands to reason that they wouldn't address, talk to or pray to him.(although they supposedly have taken direction from angels in the past. How the angels were to have communicated this info, I don't know?? it's weird)

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Myelaine: True...and I couldn't have said it any better. :^)

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