The REAL atheist meaning of life . . . (page 5)

TheUbermensch

Why should they care what someone else believes?

Anyone else care to jump on this one? Aha.

PSacramento

And if that is not the point, what is it then?

My point is people making up their own rules just for themselves rarely ends up good.

I think an excellent exapmle of people using their own rules would be someone along the lines of

John Lennon

Martin Luther King Jr.

Mahatma Ghandi

MLK and Ghandi hardly made up their own rules...

And I don't know if you've ever read "Night" by Elie Wiesel, or seen any films concerning the Holocaust, but most Jews in the beginning believed that God was condemning them for wrongdoing, or that God would save them from the horror. This mindset is illustrated greatly in "Night", and how eventually most came to the realization that God either 1) did not care about the Jews or 2) God was never there in the first place. This is the main reason the Jews never revolted, they believed God would do something about it... I mean how could God allow 6 million people to be killed simply because of their heritage and religion? One Ghetto, the Warsaw Ghetto eventually fought back. There were about 400 to 1,000 of them and they survived for around 6 months. Imagine if they had never believed that God would save them. Imagine how many would be alive today.

If the jews never fought back because they were waiting for God then they are not very good students of their own history or their own bible.

Of course IF God had acted and wiped out the millions of Nazis ( or evne just the 100's of 1000's of Germany soldiers) He would have been a genocidal killer of epic proportions, the very thing people like Dawkins accuse Him of being.

The holocaust is a prime example of "following your own rules", on the part of the Nazis.

Look, my point is simple:

Making up our own rules gets us in a lot of trouble and not just us mind you, but those arround us.

Imagine if I decided that the rules of driving a car or plane ot walking on the street, didn't apply to me?

I would drive the wrong way in one way streets, land my palne when I wanted to and cross the street when I felt like it, not when the traffic signal said it was ok to.

Lets not even mention what I would do to in the pursuit of liberty, justice and the pursuit of happiness, if I decided to ignore "the rules" of the society I lived in.

bohm

james_wood:

can you give some good examples of atheists who argue for a '"REAL" atheist meaning of life' as you describe above? (as opposed to simply stating they think life is meaningfull).

Why should they care what someone else believes?

I can give some examples, for instance it may be I observe other people believe things which I think is false, and that may raise questions along the lines (a) are they right? (b) why do they believe that? (c) how would they react to arguments i have found convincing?

but really, you have more than 6000 posts on a discussion board about religion...

TheUbermensch

But you only speak of ONE SIDE of the argument. Only the BAD things that can happen when we do such ridiculous things as "driving a car or ot walking on the street" happen.

Mahatma Ghandi had a completely original view towards life, freedom, and justice. Not sure how that's not following his own rules. MLK made massive boycotts happen (and didn't use violence) which helped further the Civil Rights Movement (how is that not his own rules?)

You are speaking of a morally deficient human being. One that has been desensitized and ignores moral standards. You are naming infamous rarities as your proof for human beings "making up their own rules", which is a ridiculous premise for an argument.

N.drew

The basis of the religion of Abraham is cause and effect imo. If you do such and such it will lead you away from trouble. If you do the other such and such it will lead you into trouble. If that is so, then they were being punished by their "god" because they did not listen to such and such that would have led them to "Zion". It is impossible for GOD "not to care". But it is The World that "does not care". Atheists seem to me to be the ones who "care" more because it is true that some religious people expect a certain behavior from GOD, atheists do not. But it should be the other way around, shouldn't it? Shouldn't it be that cause and effect should expect a certain behavior from us?

PSacramento

But you only speak of ONE SIDE of the argument. Only the BAD things that can happen when we do such ridiculous things as "driving a car or ot walking on the street" happen.

yes, I am pointing out the issues.

Of course some GOOD can happen also, not denying that.

Just stating that rules in of themselves are NOT bad.

Mahatma Ghandi had a completely original view towards life, freedom, and justice. Not sure how that's not following his own rules. MLK made massive boycotts happen (and didn't use violence) which helped further the Civil Rights Movement (how is that not his own rules?)

Ghandi was a devote Hindi and MLK a devot Christian. Both faiths have rules and both men followed them.

You are speaking of a morally deficient human being. One that has been desensitized and ignores moral standards. You are naming infamous rarities as your proof for human beings "making up their own rules", which is a ridiculous premise for an argument.

If you want to view it as ridiculous, fine.

Doesn't change that those people also "played by their own rules".

james_woods

MLK and Ghandi hardly made up their own rules...

Neither did John Lennon, once Yoko Ono got her hooks into him...

bohm

psac: Thanks for the clarification, i think i get your point.

james_woods

Why should they care what someone else believes?

I probably should have qualified that by noting that they should not care so long as other persons beliefs are not being imposed on them, or causing themselves or others a loss of freedom or human rights.

I thought that qualification would be obvious to everyone.

My point was that an intellectually free atheist (or agnostic) really does not have a reason to complain if their neighbor chooses to worship, say, the Greek Goddess Athena - so long as it is not causing direct harm to himself or others.

PSacramento

Look, I am ALL for questioning societies rules and we agree that many of the rules of "yesteryear" are obsolete and that some of the greatest achievements in society ( and science for example) have been by poeple playing by their "own rules" or ignoring "the rules".

That doesn't change the potential for some serious issues coming from that.

A person with a strong moral base ( based on rules) is more likely to produce something GOOD by going "outside thee rules" because his/her base is "directed" towards the betterment of him/herself and society.

A person that has very weak or perverted moral base ( no rules, anything is permissible), well...we all know what happens then.

If I can use a martial arts analogy:

Before we can break the rules of a system of H2H fighting, we have to know what those are, "master" them, and then go "beyond" them.

Then what we get is truly a work of art.

The REAL atheist meaning of life . . .

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