Is it God, the Bible or just the Dubs?

by Slidin Fast 59 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Dawkins makes an excellent point when he reminds us that myths always deal with the world we can see - since that is the world that our ancestors puzzled about most, there are no religious myths about cells or germs simply because our ancestors did not know they existed, they couldn't see them. The stars , trees, animals etc . on the other hand were all around and so the stories were made up around them. God - the supposed universe creator is envisioned in the Hebrew texts as wandering around one planet, in one garden, talking to two of his creations and taking a great interest in what they wear, eat and then gettig upset when they disobey. Myths are all about describing the limits of the human culture that creates them. Since the Hebrews were making up a story they could not have been expected to add in any details outside and beyond their cultural imagination. The Garden of Eden was even in their vicinity and the writers mentioned geological rivers and places they were familiar with. The Mormons borrowed that idea when they described a second Jerusalem in America.

    Nothing in the bible shows the marks of supernatural writing, it contains nothing that advanced the creating culture's knowledge (indeed quite the opposite - it locked people into very focused ways of thinking) and its stories are no more imaginative than the writers of the time. Harry Potter contains far more original and exciting thoughts than the long descriptions of religious battles etc. In fact the stories about Jesus are decidely poor, there is little to convince or interest a modern day reader ( healing miracles aren't as effective as modern medicine and pills beat faith in clinical trials ) the concept of limited self sacrifice for eternal reward (the atonement - completed in a matter of hours for a reward that is eternal and therefore infinite) is unimpressive and distinctly distasteful to modern sensibilities - especially when we consider that mythical Jesus was pretty much stuck without choice - die horribly to appease his god and get a reward or fail miserably and live on as a charlatan to endure some eternal displeasure. To the moden reader - someone getting cruxified and flayed on their behalf - especially when they've not done very much bad during their modest and unassuming lives - is disgusting not simply that a god would require that particular form of punishment and torture but that the reason for it was to protect them from the same fate but spread out continually way past the modest hours Christ suffered to be infinite - all for doing not very much. This clearly has no element of justice, balance or fairness about it. Even human jail terms are given notional lengths. So the bible stories don't fit now. They never fitted the facts. They offer morals that have been clearly deconstructed by modern atheist thinkers and shown to be immoral and injurious to the individual or society that adopts them. They tell myths that never happened. It describes a future that equally will not exist. All beliefs rooted in this set of books are utterly fallacious no matter how fulfilling.

    The bible would do well to be hastened on its way into the historical fiction section along with Beowulf.

  • tec
    tec

    Very true TEC. JWs are handed a false version of the Bible, a false version of God, and a false version of Jesus.
    None of us would like it if someone came up to us and said, "I'm going to reject you because someone told me lies about you."

    It does seem like that. Many people reject God, Christ... because of the lies religion teaches about them. What I have a hard time understanding is how? If you believe the JW's are wrong, then how can you believe what they have to say about Christ or God? Why believe their version?

    I think some people are missing the point here, theres only one choice to make, either you beive in God, Jesus Christ and the bible or you dont believe in God at all. There is nothing like believing in Jesus and not the bible.

    There are countless choices.

    The bible talks about God hating people who are neither cold not hot, i know most people find it hard to believe a majority of things the bible talks about but thats the only way to being a christian . The bible stresses on things like HOPE and FAITH, and it references the lives of people like Abraham,Noah and so forth who had not seen but yet believed. I bet at must have been hard for them. Imagine Abraham had to sacrifice his only begotten son in his test of faith, Noah had to go through the trouble of builiding an ark so great in size, and many other folks in the bible.

    The only way to be a christian is through Christ. You can certainly be one without the bible. (though most of us need something tangible to at least point us toward Christ) Abraham did not have a bible. Abraham walked by FAITH. Not by SIGHT. The bible is a tool for those who walk by sight... even if only until they learn to walk by faith.

    Christ himself said that he would not leave us as orphans. He is not dead, but alive, in Spirit. The Spirit teaches and leads us into all truth.

    There was a time i was on the fence, i doubted some part of the bible and beleived what seemed plausible to me, but all this changed after i decided i had to choose a side. I now believe the bible word for word, and the HOPE and FAITH i have in God keeps me going. U cant imagine what is there to discover if you seek God earnestly.

    Agreed. But please understand that some do not need this all or nothing faith in the bible, to have faith in Christ and God.

    Perhaps as per Designs banter though, you were just teasing?

    especially when we consider that mythical Jesus was pretty much stuck without choice

    . He totally had a choice. Even said that He could have called on His Father to send an army of angels. He chose what he did. .

    die horribly to appease his god and get a reward or fail miserably and live on as a charlatan to endure some eternal displeasure

    . This would be just a small eXample of one of those lies that religions teach that might cause someone to reject Christ and God, instead of just rejecting the lie and those who tell the lie. There is no mention anywhere of 'eternal displeasure' should Christ choose NOT to give his life for those who put their faith in him. . Peace, Tammy

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Are you telling me that god would not have been displeased that his grand plan had failed, 4000 years in and Satan had won?

    If Jesus doesn't die in the Roman manner are you saying that Jesus still gets his reward?

    Since we are talking about the mythical writings of the bible, writings to which you have shown no particular allegiance, I think we can agree that the bible shows no evidence that an alternate route was available and would have been equally pleasing to god. The NT bible seems to build this pivotal moment as the most important and failure was not an option. Jesus had no choice, this was his sole reason for existence at this point. Failure would have been disaster.

  • tec
    tec

    Are you telling me that god would not have been displeased that his grand plan had failed, 4000 years in and Satan had won?

    I am not telling you anything. You are telling me something that is not there.

    If Jesus doesn't die in the Roman manner are you saying that Jesus still gets his reward?

    The name that is above every name, etc, etc? If He does not obey God, showing faith unto death, then no I don't think that He does (not that what I think makes it so)... at least not according to what is written, since his name was elevated because of what he did, and his faith, and obedience. But that does not mean He would have suffered eternal displeasure had he chosen differently. God is merciful and forgiving.

    Since we are talking about the mythical writings of the bible, writings to which you have shown no particular allegiance, I think we can agree that the bible shows no evidence that an alternate route was available and would have been equally pleasing to god. The NT bible seems to build this pivotal moment as the most important and failure was not an option. Jesus had no choice, this was his sole reason for existence at this point. Failure would have been disaster.

    We're talking about actual writings of the bible (mythical writings would not eXist). Writings in the bible tell us what happened, and some prophecy about what is to happen. Just because alternate routes aren't played out doesn't mean that they don't (or do) e X ist. The bible does not contain an account of every single thing. And yes, while failure might have been a disaster for us, that doesn't mean that it was not an option. Christ had the ability to choose. First to come, second to live in obedience and faith, and third to lay down his life.

    We might be getting into a free will thing here though, and there are a couple other threads that we could jump into if that is the case.

    Peace,

    Tammy

  • JeffT
    JeffT

    One of the worst mistakes of Bible exegisis promoted by JW's and other literalists is to treat every book of the Bible as equal to every other book. This gets picked up by non-believers and stood on its head - they make the same mistake but the opposite application. It's like saying your library is wrong because half of what's in it is fiction, or because some of the books disagree with each other.

    When considering what the Bible says you need to take into consideration the time, place, intended audience and probable intention of the author. And for some of us the believer's conscience, intelligence and free will are co-equal with what the Bible says.

    If a physics text says that Quantum Mechanics and Einstein's Theory of Relativity can't be reconciled, does that mean physics is useless?

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Tec - the Jesus of the bible asks if there is another way and God indicates that there is not and it has to be flaying and nailing. What you are saying re mythical writings not existing is just dense - sometimes I wonder whether you take seriously what you post. The bible is purely mythical stories. The parables of Aesop are not real events. The existence of the paper and ink isn't the mythical part and you know it or if you really thought that was what I meant then I will dial down my expectations of you and future conversations. Here's an x you can cut and paste.

    Bronze age cultures responsible for the OT didn't know about how the body functioned and so included plenty of mistakes in their myths. The Garden of Eden cannot be taken seriously as a supposed event when it talks about the lack of death. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how even something as simple as food digestion requires the death of stomach cells as acid breaks down food or how cooking ( requiring burning dead organic material ) is necessary for the human bodies digestion and without it we'd struggle to support our brains energy needs. Then their is eating itself which of course requires the killing of plant cells or even whole plants. This whole fundamental ignorance of reality underpins the myths of the bible ( and indeed all myths ) and that's before we even address talking animals.

    The Fall myth is the entire basis for the Atonement myth that followed in the NT. The disgusting idea that butchering an animal would pay for breaking religious rules , I.e. that something else living can be forced to act as makeweight in a divine court of justice allowing the lawbreaker to continue Scott free, reaches is most immoral and shocking climax when expressed as human sacrifice. Why so many cultures seem to favour this immoral practise is a subject for another thread but it is a sign of a retrograde culture that makes up a supernatural need to murder someone else.

    Modern Xians, brought up in a modern , advanced, educated culture , in order to maintain any kind of pretence that their belief is real are forced to treat every single supposed factual statement, no matter whether it is supposed to be the word of god, Jesus or a prophet, as potentially mythical , as allegorical the moment it is proven by science to be impossible ( though it was of course literal right up to that moment. ) The flood, Eden, talking animals, a literal 6 day creation, Jehovah being a genocidal maniac, making people out of dust, the Nativity story, Angels having sex with humans to produce offspring etc. have all become myths to the modern xian in the face of common sense, logic and above all knowledge derived by the scientific method. Modern xianity scrambles for a refuge by denying the reality of the very stories that justify their belief. In the long term the conceit of faith always gives way to the advance of knowledge. The latest game is to claim an ever more inaccessible - by fact or written text - Christ further and further divorced from the stories made up and recorded in the NT about him.

    When we atheists turn up at the xian bible story book burning events and find them chucking in previously cherished texts fo the fire of reality we scratch our heads when they get so excited and annoyed when we suggest they just chuck it all in rather than clinging more tightly to an ever decreasing pile of accepted scripture.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Tec may I suggest a small utility to help with your keyboard. http://webpages.charter.net/krumsick it a keyboard remapping utility that allows you to change your registry key bindings so you could map x to # or something.

  • ShadesofGrey
    ShadesofGrey

    I recommend a reading of The Top Ten Myths about Evolution.

    It may also suprise many to know that the majority of both Young Earth Creationists and Old Earth Creationists believe in the evolution of MRSA, speciation, etc. They believe in evolution. Just not all of the aspects of the theory of evolution.

    As for doubts in the Bible, I don't know what to say. I wanted to believe in Christ, so I kept searching. Most of my questions were answered. There are books of the Bible that lead to Christ, especially Isaiah, the 4 Gospels, Romans, Galatians, 1 John. The other books are best read after receiving Christ's Spirit, because the understanding is explained by Him.

    I have had religion in my life as a JW, as a fallen away JW that still read the Bible, as someone who pursued Eastern views on life-force...

    My prayers were not answered when I was relying on faith in a false god, or positive energy, positive thinking.

    Christ changes everything.

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    Tammy Qcmbr's Suggestion to solve your x factor problem is good.

    An easier way may be to type using Microsoft Word. Go to Tools Auto Correct options. Paste in your missing X and set the computer to type X whenever you press #. Some other programmes also have an auto correct option.

  • JAFO
    JAFO
    Is it God, the Bible or just the Dubs?

    It's all of the above.

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