Fresia and Black Sheep chime in with a bunch of off-topic, unrelated gibberish and accuse me of being a "troll."
Excuse me mAlice, I have always said that you are not a troll, just a Dub typical of my own dysfunctional family
JWs and the Family Unit - Calling Maze to defend assertions
by Retrovirus 61 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Black Sheep
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GLTirebiter
This doesn't necessarily take into account marriages formed in Jehovah's Organization. A person could have been divorced prior to becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses
That also applies to marriages outside of the Catholic church, the many Protestant churches, Jewish Synagogues, Mosques, Las Vegas wedding chapels, Rev. Moon's mass weddings, etc. A person also could be divorced, and then leave the Watchtower organization. Indeed, their "scriptural divorce" stance means that a divorced person may be pushed out (DF or DA) for divorcing without so-called scriptural grounds. Applying logic similar to yours, these should count as JW divorces--not as divorces for their new religious affiliation (or lack thereof). Your response is a red herring, a diversion from the point at hand, your assertion that "The lie that Jehovah's Witnesses ruin families is apostate poison."
215 Jehovah’s Witnesses out of 7 million isn't accurpushed ate.
Again I say to you: re-read your Statistics 101 textbook. The mathematics of forming valid sample sets for large populations is well established. Pew showed the details of their sample population, including the relative uncertainty based on the sample size. Disagreement with the results doesn't affect their validity. Acknowledging the facts and working for improvement would be a productive response; criticizing the messenger is not.
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charlie brown jr.
Maze only hears what it wants......
Ignores the most honest comments and avoids questions It can't respond to....
plus It ignores my intentions of Love.....
you Bad Thing!!!
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kramseivad
i dont really care for stats
in my case the simple fact is that myself my wife and our children have no contact with there jw relatives
they dont know there grandparents even though they live in the same town on the other hand there cousions who also live here have a totally different relationship with them they are jws
in fact i find that relatives are more inclined to follow the shunning policy then other witnesses
any religion that breaks the bonds between parent and child is not healthy
im resigned to the fact that i will never speak to my parents ever again
without appearing like a crazy person i try and explain to people jw shunning policy and we have enough respect in the local community for people to appear sympathetic
i wonder if they sit at home thinking how good it would be to be all talking
so from my personal experience jw do destroy families
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jgnat
*tears in my eyes*, guys, thank you for providing such a thorough rebuttal to maze's assertions. I can add nothing more.
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keyser soze
2. Young persons raised as Jehovah's Witnesses ignore counsel in the Bible and Bible based publications and get married before they are mature enough to shoulder the responsibilities of marriage.
I knew of many such marriages. The sad part is that not a single one of them was ever discouraged by the parents, or the supposedly spirit-directed elders.
1. A spouse turns their back on Jehovah and their family out of selfish motives.
That's JW-speak for a spouse deciding he/she no longer wishes to be a JW. This only proves the OP's assertion.
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Maze
That also applies to marriages outside of the Catholic church, the many Protestant churches, Jewish Synagogues, Mosques, Las Vegas wedding chapels, Rev. Moon's mass weddings, etc. A person also could be divorced, and then leave the Watchtower organization. Indeed, their "scriptural divorce" stance means that a divorced person may be pushed out (DF or DA) for divorcing without so-called scriptural grounds. Applying logic similar to yours, these should count as JW divorces--not as divorces for their new religious affiliation (or lack thereof). Your response is a red herring, a diversion from the point at hand, your assertion that "The lie that Jehovah's Witnesses ruin families is apostate poison."
For the most part, the membership of Christendom's Churches (or Islam or Orthodox Judaism) is traditional while the membership of Jehovah's Organization is (for the most part) the result of a conversion to a new religious movement. No one gets disfellowshipped for divorcing on unscriptural grounds. They would have to remarry.
However, I say to you that everyone divorcing his wife, except on account of fornication, makes her a subject for adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. Matthew 5:32
There's only on organization on the planet that puts into practice Jesus' words at Matthew 5:32. This acts as a strengthening aid to the marriage arrangement.
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nugget
It is a shame but Maze merely proves that if someone is not ready to listen they will not. Cognitive dissonance is a pitiful thing to behold.
Does the organisation break up families well of course it does otherwise what is the point of the shunning policy? If so called sinners were not expelled from the family they may corrupt others. The watchtower July 15th leaves witnesses in no doubt that to be a good christian they need to shun those who do not share beliefs. A family member is no longer part of the family therefore the family is broken. Not all return to the organisation so some families will be broken.
Whether you only accept divorces between mature people or divorces across the whole congregation is irrelevant, Any marriage that takes place with the approval of the elders and certainly anyone who marries in the kingdom hall must be deemed ready to marry otherwise why were they allowed to use the hall? The fact is the society gives tacit approval to early marriage by participating in these weddings and must bear some responsibility for their subsequent failures.
This board is not full of people who allowed greed, carnal desires and a rebellious spirit to overcome them and as such deserve in the JW eyes to be rejected by their family. They are people with varying backgrounds and stories not all are rejected by all family members but it is a typical pattern that most have been. You imply that many of us merely pretend to be ex JWs and our experiences are counterfeit but I have taken the trouble to meet some myself and I have yet to find any so called counterfeit apostates. The depth of knowledge and shared understanding indicates a group who have been through a similar experience.
I'm sorry but congregations are a mix of converts and born ins and in all the congregations I have attended converts are less common than born ins and in some the families are so inter related they create their own power base. Being strict about divorce doesn't make weak marriages strong or encourage young ones to think more carefully about the commitment they are making it serves no purpose as the divorce statistics quoted show. What it does indicate that witnesses are more likely to commit adultery to escape a marriage than just accept they married trhe wrong person and apply for a no fault divorce that involves no immorality. IT could be said the society actually makes a bad situation worse.
I appreciate that you really have little interest in answering my points but be assured that I have been married for nearly 23 years and it was leaving the society that preserved my immediate family although it also led to rejection by siblings. I see my extended family as broken.
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GLTirebiter
For the most part, the membership of Christendom's Churches (or Islam or Orthodox Judaism) is traditional while the membership of Jehovah's Organization is (for the most part) the result of a conversion to a new religious movement.
"For the most part": can you document that statement? How many Witnesses presenting themselves for baptism are new converts, compared to how many "born-in" children of Witnesses? Observing the congregation my Ex belongs to, there are several teens baptised each year but very few converts (averaging perhaps one each year). Growth in the congregation has been no higher than would be expected for the population growth in the area--Witnesses moving here from other towns, not converts.
There's only on organization on the planet that puts into practice Jesus' words at Matthew 5:32. This acts as a strengthening aid to the marriage arrangement.
So, since "there's only one organization," are you admitting the Watchtower does not put those words into practice? Catholics certainly do, so if there is "only one organization," it must be them. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1646 By its very nature conjugal love requires the inviolable fidelity of the spouses. This is the consequence of the gift of themselves which they make to each other. Love seeks to be definitive; it cannot be an arrangement "until further notice."
1649 Yet there are some situations in which living together becomes practically impossible for a variety of reasons. In such cases the Church permits the physical separation of the couple and their living apart. the spouses do not cease to be husband and wife before God and so are not free to contract a new union.
1650 Today there are numerous Catholics in many countries who have recourse to civil divorce and contract new civil unions. In fidelity to the words of Jesus Christ - "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery" The Church maintains that a new union cannot be recognized as valid, if the first marriage was.
No one gets disfellowshipped for divorcing on unscriptural grounds. They would have to remarry.
Agreed about "disfellowshipped", but would there be other consequences? A "local needs" talks marking the person the elders consider at fault, perhaps?
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Retrovirus
Thank you all for your help with this. Welcome, Kramseivad, and I'm sorry for your family situation
any religion that breaks the bonds between parent and child is not healthy . . .couldn't agree more.
Thank you Nugget, for your post; it helps me as an outsider to understand.
Maze, I don't think you're a troll, although your name changing and habit of running away from debate is troll like, but then running away is also characteristic of jw when asked hard questions.
It has been established that the wt does not support the family unit and it is not a lie to say that jws ruin families - nor an apostate lie, because I am not an apostate.
I started this thread because in my experience, believing jws accept any answer, however illogical and unsupported, to a question that they find difficult. Didn't want any lurkers to be reassured by Maze's post.