I called the KH- "the Memorial is tomorrow night, right? (page 2)

nugget

good for you Moshe you always make me think espeacially when you point out the stupidity of the organisation. It helps to keep me on the straight and narrow and happy with my apostate status.

thetrueone

The holiday of Pesach , or Passover , falls on the Hebrew calendar dates of Nissan 15-22. Here are coinciding secular dates for the upcoming years:

2011: April 18-26

2012: April 6-14

2013: March 25-April 2

2014: April 14-22

2015: April 3-11

Note: The Jewish calendar date begins at sundown of the night beforehand. Thus all holiday observances begin at sundown on the secular dates listed, with the following day being the first full day of the holiday. (Thus, the first Passover seder is held on the evening of the first date listed.) Jewish calendar dates conclude at nightfall.

The first two days of Passover (from sundown of the first date listed, until nightfall two days later) are full-fledged, no-work-allowed holiday days. The subsequent four days are Chol Hamoed, when work is allowed, albeit with restrictions. Chol Hamoed is followed by another two full holiday days.

thetrueone

Passover in 2011 will start on Tuesday, the 19th of April and will continue for 7 days until Monday, the 25th of April.

Note that in the Jewish calander, a holiday begins on the sunset of the previous day, so observing Jews will celebrate Passover

on the sunset of Monday, the 18th of April.

garyneal

Moshe,

I nearly split my side reading that conversation.

it's a thankless job making JWs look like idiots.

And you do such a good job at it. Continuing the conversation into whether or not Judas partook was priceless.

djeggnog

@moshe:

"Are you telling me the Jews don't know when their own Passover is- That's silly"

We follow the Bible- it's [Nisan] 14 tonight, after sundown"

"But , Passover starts at sundown on Nissan 15, the Jews know that- why don't you?"

Me- Well the Bible says Jesus instituted the new covenant right after the Passover meal was finished, so are you saying the WT is right and the Bible is wrong? Passover starts tomorrow night, after sundown!"-- long pause---

Finally he got off , but he never agreed to read Luke and John ( I asked him to look them up on the phone), but I'll bet he does- what do you think?

FYI, Jehovah's Witnesses know even as Jews know when Nisan 14, the day on which Jesus celebrated the Passover and on which day he went on to make a covenant with his apostles for a position in the kingdom of God as emblems were, immediately after the seder, the passover meal, had been concluded, passed among his disciples, which is the basis for the Memorial of Christ's death celebrated each year on whatever the day is that Nisan 14 falls in that particular year.

While you believe the Jews ought to know when the Passover, which is a one of the "high" days that they observe each year -- and they do! -- Jewish tradition dictates when they observe the Passover, and this year, in 2011, they will wait until sundown on Monday, Nisan 14 -- which would be Tuesday, Nisan 15 -- to begin their observance of it. In contrast, the Memorial of Christ's death is being observed by Jehovah's Witnesses this year at sundown on Sunday, Nisan 14.

This year, Nisan 14, 5771 A.M., on the Jewish calendar, spans Sunday and Monday, which Passover begins at sundown tonight (Sunday) and ends at sundown tomorrow (Monday). Now one of the things you mentioned in your post was how it was you suggested to the person with whom you spoke on the telephone today that he read the apostle John's gospel (and Luke's), but 1,978 years ago, back on Nisan 14, 33 AD, which is the date to which the apostle refers, note what John writes at John 13:1:

Now, because he knew before the festival of the passover that his hour had come for him to move out of this world to the Father, Jesus, having loved his own that were in the world, loved them to the end.

I especially like the way in which John's gospel expands here in this verse upon Jesus' words at John 3:16, where Jesus is quoted as saying --

For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

-- for what Jesus' words, "having loved his own that were in the world," meant in this context is that the world that God loved were those in the world, who are no part of it (John 17:16), "not concerning the world," mind you, but concerning those in the world that were given to Jesus by God (John 17:9). those of Jesus' own that were in the world, for it is really those that are exercising faith in Jesus Christ that "God loved" while the world that is not exercising faith in Jesus hates those of his followers "because they are no part of the world." (John 17:14) But I digress.

It was on this last Passover that he had celebrated with his apostles, "while the evening meal was going on," that Jesus "got up from the evening meal," removed his coat, took a towel and after putting some water into a water basin, started to wash the feet of the disciples and then dry their feet with the towel. (John 13:2-5) All of this occurred on Nisan 14, 3793 A.M., on the Jewish calendar, or Nisan 14, 33 AD, which Passover spanned Thursday and Monday, and began at sundown (Thursday) and ended at sundown (Friday).

Put another way, Jesus celebrated his last Passover with his apostles on Thursday evening, Nisan 14, 33 AD, and it was "about the ninth hour" (Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34; Luke 23:44) -- here "ninth hour" means that it was about 3:00 pm on Friday afternoon of Nisan 14, 33 AD -- that Jesus died. Nisan 14, 33 AD, corresponds to Thursday/Friday, April 2/3, 33 AD, Julian, and March 31/April 1, 33 AD, Gregorian. Nisan 14, 5771 A.M., or Nisan 14, 2011, corresponds to Thursday/Friday, April 4/5, 2011, Julian, and April 17/18, 2011, Gregorian.

Just because Jewish tradition may decide to celebrate its Passover on the evening of Nisan 14 -- which would really be Nisan 15 and not Nisan 14 -- does not mean that Jehovah's Witnesses must follow their lead since it is really our endeavor, @moshe, to observe the Memorial of Christ's death, and not the Jewish Passover. I suspect that you aren't knowledgeable about the Hebrew calendar or about this particular "high" day on it, but you do not need to be a Bible scholar, as I am, to learn about the Jewish calendar. In lieu of your taking a course in a community college somewhere, perhaps you could benefit yourself by just going to a public library and doing a bit of reading up on this subject.

@djeggnog

poopsiecakes

Moshe, that's classic!!

And now that my eggy friend has joined the conversation, I'll just pull up a chair

wannabefree

Thank God for Bible scholars.

If only Jesus had some instead of men who were just unlettered and ordinary, fishermen, a tax collector, and relatives.

Mary

OK eggnog: I'll all dolled up and ready for you to pick me up for our hot date tonight! What time should we get to the Memorial in order to get some good seats??!

WontLeave

Jewish tradition dictates when they observe the Passover

Okay, usually I let your stuff go by, because you're a GB robot and I figure you're about as easy to get out of your rut as dislodging the Pope from Catholicism. But this is so false, it's ridiculous. Actually, the Bible dictates when Passover is observed.

The sheep should prove to be sound, a male, a year old, for YOU. YOU may pick from the young rams or from the goats. And it must continue under safeguard by YOU until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel must slaughter it between the two evenings. And they must take some of the blood and splash it upon the two doorposts and the upper part of the doorway belonging to the houses in which they will eat it. “‘And they must eat the flesh on this night. - Exo 12:5-8

The lamb is slaughtered on the 14th day of the month (originally "Aviv", but now known as "Nisan"). Since the lamb was eaten at night, that would be the next Jewish day, which changes at sundown. This puts us at Nisan 15th. This is just another place where Witnesses have to pick a fight with everybody about everything, because they're elitists and separatists.

Now on the first day of unfermented cakes, when they customarily sacrificed the passover [victim], his disciples said to him: “Where do you want us to go and prepare for you to eat the passover? - Mark 14:12

I think we can all agree this is Nisan 14th. This is the day God told Israel to slaughter the passover lamb.

After evening had fallen he came with the twelve. - Mark 14:17

This would be the next Jewish day, because it was now evening; Nisan 15 - Passover. Everybody gets it except the Governing Body.

Don't even start with the "between the two evenings" being from sundown to night, either. That is a load of crap and everybody knows it. If we're going to allow people to tell us what God meant to say, then we might as well all believe in Hellfire, Trinity, and Transubstantiation just because someone told us to.

By the way, huge Watchtower articles doesn't make them right. It just makes them bombastic.

Found Sheep

this is funny

I called the KH- "the Memorial is tomorrow night, right?

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